What is the root of Islamic Terrorism?

Iriemon · Aug 13, 2007

Originally Posted by Iriemon
Fundamental to the subjective.

I quite agree that Christian populations have been shrinking fast, particularly in the past 6 years or so, as the fires of radical Islam have been rapidly fanned.

dixon76710 said:
????? Its been going on a lot longer than 6 years. And other than Iraq, not particularly so in the last 6 years any more than the previous 50. Sounds like your knowledge of the mideast begins from 6 years ago.

I agree that shrinking Christian populations in the ME is not just in the past 6 years, which is why I conditioned it with the word "particularly."

In Iraq at least, "particularly" applies specifically. The sectarian violence unleashed by the US attack has been very tough on the Christian community there, with scores of thousands fleeing since the invasion.

Trajan Octavian Titus · Aug 13, 2007

Iriemon said:
Christians have lived in Iraq in the hundreds of thousands for centuries:

Iraq's Christian Minority Flees Violence, Half Of Nation's Christian Population May Have Left After Increasing Incidents Of Attacks And Kidnappings - CBS News
The Destruction of Iraq's Christians
Christians in Iraq by Glen Chancy

Ya as Dhimmi's what's your point?

I certainly agree that tensions between religious groups in the ME have been heightened especially in recent years.

"In recent years"??? Ya umm, there might be some tension when a ****ing cartoon induces riots and the slaughter of Westerners. But I guess you're right so long as us Kufars keep our heads down and try our best to bow to our Mohammedian overlords and do nothing to offend them what so ever ther will be peace. Sorry but you and they can kiss my fat white Irish a$s.

aquapub · Aug 13, 2007

Billo_Really said:
The US occupation is the root of it now!

3 reasons this assertion is crap:

1) Terrorists "flourished" in Iraq because we gave Islamic terrorists an open battlefield in their own back yard. They go to Iraq instead of coming here and that's the whole point of taking the fight to them.

2) When Democrats retreated from Islamic terrorists in Somalia, did it bolster or deflate the Islamic terrorist movement? Nearly a decade of al Qaida attacks (which went unanswered, thank you Democrats) leading up to 9/11 tells me it bolstered Islamic terrorism. And this was all before we "created terrorists" by liberating Iraq.

3) Muslim terrorists aren't doing what they do because we destroyed their lives and left them with no hope. Look at the PHDs who carried out the latest plot. They all had bright futures ahead of them and still threw it all away to slaughter infidels.

The only common thread between all Islamic terrorists is the "Religion of Peace"...the one that was born in violence, and remains entrenched in self-initiated violence in every corner of the world.

Iriemon · Aug 13, 2007

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Ya as Dhimmi's what's your point?

Christians and Muslims have been able to live together for centuries. The religious differences are not ipso facto the cause of conflict.

"In recent years"??? Ya umm, there might be some tension when a ****ing cartoon induces riots and the slaughter of Westerners.

The cartoons were in 2005, in the realm of "recent years"

But I guess you're right so long as us Kufars keep our heads down and try our best to bow to our Mohammedian overlords and do nothing to offend them what so ever ther will be peace. Sorry but you and they can kiss my fat white Irish a$s.

Oh I think there are other alternatives between that an all out religious war.

Iriemon · Aug 13, 2007

aquapub said:
3 reasons this assertion is crap:

1) Terrorists "flourished" in Iraq because we gave Islamic terrorists an open battlefield in their own back yard. They go to Iraq instead of coming here and that's the whole point of taking the fight to them.

Terrorists have flourished is exactly right, there expontentially more terrorists and terrorist attacks now than 4 years ago. Iraq has given the casus belli.

2) When Democrats retreated from Islamic terrorists in Somalia, did it bolster or deflate the Islamic terrorist movement? Nearly a decade of al Qaida attacks (which went unanswered, thank you Democrats) leading up to 9/11 tells me it bolstered Islamic terrorism. And this was all before we "created terrorists" by liberating Iraq.

While Al-Queda, a small radical offspring of US assistance to the jhadists in the 80s developed in the 90s, there was no evidence that radical movement in the ME was expanding particularly rapidly in the decade leading up to 9/11.

3) Muslim terrorists aren't doing what they do because we destroyed their lives and left them with no hope. Look at the PHDs who carried out the latest plot. They all had bright futures ahead of them and still threw it all away to slaughter infidels.

That is exactly why Bin Laden did it. When his radical ideas threatened the Saudi kingdom and they expelled him, he blamed the US and it was at that time he began targeting it.

The only common thread between all Islamic terrorists is the "Religion of Peace"...the one that was born in violence, and remains entrenched in self-initiated violence in every corner of the world.

The common thread between Islamic terrorists is that they are Islamic? That is very insightful.

The Mark · Aug 13, 2007

Iriemon said:
Terrorists have flourished is exactly right, there exponentially more terrorists and terrorist attacks now than 4 years ago. Iraq has given the casus belli.

I keep hearing that there are more terrorists now than four years ago. However, I have yet to see any proof that this is true.
Additionally, even if it IS true, who is to say US presence in Iraq is the cause? Perhaps there were simply a large number of terrorists in hiding, so that they weren't noticed before, and the war in Iraq has drawn them out....which I can only think of as a good thing.

Iriemon said:
While Al-Queda, a small radical offspring of US assistance to the jhadists in the 80s developed in the 90s, there was no evidence that radical movement in the ME was expanding particularly rapidly in the decade leading up to 9/11.

Perhaps a portion of the expansion was being hidden? As I suggested above? Surely you don't think intelligence services around the world had an exact picture of the number and size of radical Islamic terrorist groups at that time.

Iriemon said:
The common thread between Islamic terrorists is that they are Islamic? That is very insightful.

Yes, exceedingly so.
And yet, I think that was not the point that was attempted here.
I think it was most likely more along the lines of "One of the main causes behind Islamic terrorism is its member’s religion"......but you most likely knew that already.

dragonslayer · Aug 13, 2007

Six of one and half dozen of the other.

Iriemon · Aug 13, 2007

The Mark said:
I keep hearing that there are more terrorists now than four years ago. However, I have yet to see any proof that this is true.
Additionally, even if it IS true, who is to say US presence in Iraq is the cause? Perhaps there were simply a large number of terrorists in hiding, so that they weren't noticed before, and the war in Iraq has drawn them out....which I can only think of as a good thing.

The most comprehensive source is the recent NIE report that found this was happening:

2006 National intelligence estimate

We also assess that the global jihadist movement—which includes al- Qa’ida, affiliated and independent terrorist groups, and emerging networks and cells—is spreading and adapting to counterterrorism efforts.

Although we cannot measure the extent of the spread with precision, a large body of all-source reporting indicates that activists identifying themselves as jihadists, although a small percentage of Muslims, are increasing in both number and geographic dispersion.

We assess that the global jihadist movement is decentralized, lacks a coherent global strategy, and is becoming more diffuse. New jihadist networks and cells, with anti-American agendas, are increasingly likely to emerge. The confluence of shared purpose and dispersed actors will make it harder to find and undermine jihadist groups.

We assess that the Iraq jihad is shaping a new generation of terrorist leaders and operatives; perceived jihadist success there would inspire more fighters to continue the struggle elsewhere.

The Iraq conflict has become the "cause celebre" for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for the global jihadist movement. Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves, and be perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight.

Four underlying factors are fueling the spread of the jihadist movement: (1) Entrenched grievances, such as corruption, injustice, and fear of Western domination, leading to anger, humiliation, and a sense of powerlessness; (2) the Iraq "jihad;" (3) the slow pace of real and sustained economic, social, and political reforms in many Muslim majority nations; and (4) pervasive anti-US sentiment among most Muslims -- all of which jihadists exploit.

Countering the spread of the jihadist movement will require coordinated multilateral efforts that go well beyond operations to capture or kill terrorist leaders.

If democratic reform efforts in Muslim majority nations progress over the next five years, political participation probably would drive a wedge between intransigent extremists and groups willing to use the political process to achieve their local objectives. Nonetheless, attendant reforms and potentially destabilizing transitions will create new opportunities for jihadists to exploit.
Al-Qa’ida, now merged with Abu Mus’ab al-Zarqawi’s network, is exploiting the situation in Iraq to attract new recruits and donors and to maintain its leadership role.

The increased role of Iraqis in managing the operations of al-Qa'ida in Iraq might lead veteran foreign jihadists to focus their efforts on external operations.

We judge that most jihadist groups -- both well-known and newly formed -- will use improvised explosive devices and suicide attacks focused primarily on soft targets to implement their asymmetric warfare strategy, and that they will attempt to conduct sustained terrorist attacks in urban environments. Fighters with experience in Iraq are a potential source of leadership for jihadists pursuing these tactics.

Anti-US and anti-globalization sentiment is on the rise and fueling other radical ideologies. This could prompt some leftist, nationalist, or separatist groups to adopt terrorist methods to attack US interests. The radicalization process is occurring more quickly, more widely, and more anonymously in the Internet age, raising the likelihood of surprise attacks by unknown groups whose members and supporters may be difficult to pinpoint.

Declassified Key Judgments of the National Intelligence Estimate "Trends in Global Terrorism: Implications for the United States" dated April 2006

Other reports have shown that the number of terrorist attacks have exploded worldwide. According to State Department data, there were 208 worldwide terrorist attacks in 2003 (lowest in years) which number explosed to over 14,000 in 2006.

CNN.com - U.S. raises figures for 2003 terrorist attacks - Jun 22, 2004

Sharp rise in terrorist attacks in 2006 - International Terrorism - MSNBC.com

The election of anti-American radical governments Iran, Palestine and Lebanon is further evidence.

Finally, studies by Israeli and Saudi intellegence agencies and other reports have documented case studies indicating that Iraq is a motivating cause for Muslims to join the anti-America jihad:

Study cites seeds of terror in Iraq - The Boston Globe

War Helps Recruit Terrorists, Hill Told (washingtonpost.com)

Iraq New Terror Breeding Ground (washingtonpost.com)

Perhaps a portion of the expansion was being hidden? As I suggested above? Surely you don't think intelligence services around the world had an exact picture of the number and size of radical Islamic terrorist groups at that time.

I agree that the number can only be estimated. The data presented above indicates to me beyond peradventure that the Iraq war has been the cause of the exponential grwoth in terrorism.

Originally Posted by Iriemon
The common thread between Islamic terrorists is that they are Islamic? That is very insightful.

Yes, exceedingly so.
And yet, I think that was not the point that was attempted here.
I think it was most likely more along the lines of "One of the main causes behind Islamic terrorism is its member’s religion"......but you most likely knew that already.

I was pointing out the circular nature of the statement. Of course Islamic terrorists are going to be Islamic! LOL! That is like saying that the common thread among American killers is that they are American.

I suspect that you are correct on the intent.

Trajan Octavian Titus · Aug 14, 2007

Iriemon said:
The most comprehensive source is the recent NIE report that found this was happening:

2006 National intelligence estimate

We also assess that the global jihadist movement—which includes al- Qa’ida, affiliated and independent terrorist groups, and emerging networks and cells—is spreading and adapting to counterterrorism efforts.

Although we cannot measure the extent of the spread with precision, a large body of all-source reporting indicates that activists identifying themselves as jihadists, although a small percentage of Muslims, are increasing in both number and geographic dispersion.

We assess that the global jihadist movement is decentralized, lacks a coherent global strategy, and is becoming more diffuse. New jihadist networks and cells, with anti-American agendas, are increasingly likely to emerge. The confluence of shared purpose and dispersed actors will make it harder to find and undermine jihadist groups.

We assess that the Iraq jihad is shaping a new generation of terrorist leaders and operatives; perceived jihadist success there would inspire more fighters to continue the struggle elsewhere.

The Iraq conflict has become the "cause celebre" for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for the global jihadist movement. Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves, and be perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight.

Four underlying factors are fueling the spread of the jihadist movement: (1) Entrenched grievances, such as corruption, injustice, and fear of Western domination, leading to anger, humiliation, and a sense of powerlessness; (2) the Iraq "jihad;" (3) the slow pace of real and sustained economic, social, and political reforms in many Muslim majority nations; and (4) pervasive anti-US sentiment among most Muslims -- all of which jihadists exploit.

Countering the spread of the jihadist movement will require coordinated multilateral efforts that go well beyond operations to capture or kill terrorist leaders.

If democratic reform efforts in Muslim majority nations progress over the next five years, political participation probably would drive a wedge between intransigent extremists and groups willing to use the political process to achieve their local objectives. Nonetheless, attendant reforms and potentially destabilizing transitions will create new opportunities for jihadists to exploit.
Al-Qa’ida, now merged with Abu Mus’ab al-Zarqawi’s network, is exploiting the situation in Iraq to attract new recruits and donors and to maintain its leadership role.

The increased role of Iraqis in managing the operations of al-Qa'ida in Iraq might lead veteran foreign jihadists to focus their efforts on external operations.

We judge that most jihadist groups -- both well-known and newly formed -- will use improvised explosive devices and suicide attacks focused primarily on soft targets to implement their asymmetric warfare strategy, and that they will attempt to conduct sustained terrorist attacks in urban environments. Fighters with experience in Iraq are a potential source of leadership for jihadists pursuing these tactics.

Anti-US and anti-globalization sentiment is on the rise and fueling other radical ideologies. This could prompt some leftist, nationalist, or separatist groups to adopt terrorist methods to attack US interests. The radicalization process is occurring more quickly, more widely, and more anonymously in the Internet age, raising the likelihood of surprise attacks by unknown groups whose members and supporters may be difficult to pinpoint.

Declassified Key Judgments of the National Intelligence Estimate "Trends in Global Terrorism: Implications for the United States" dated April 2006

Other reports have shown that the number of terrorist attacks have exploded worldwide. According to State Department data, there were 208 worldwide terrorist attacks in 2003 (lowest in years) which number explosed to over 14,000 in 2006.

CNN.com - U.S. raises figures for 2003 terrorist attacks - Jun 22, 2004

Sharp rise in terrorist attacks in 2006 - International Terrorism - MSNBC.com

The election of anti-American radical governments Iran, Palestine and Lebanon is further evidence.

Finally, studies by Israeli and Saudi intellegence agencies and other reports have documented case studies indicating that Iraq is a motivating cause for Muslims to join the anti-America jihad:

Study cites seeds of terror in Iraq - The Boston Globe

War Helps Recruit Terrorists, Hill Told (washingtonpost.com)

Iraq New Terror Breeding Ground (washingtonpost.com)

Well golly gee willickers you think that when you actually start fighting the enemy the enemy might fight back harder? Hay newsflash, AQ was dead in the water in the early 90's but it was our withdrawal from Somolia that inspired many to join AQ and prompted the funding to start pumping again. OBL was broke and his organization was in the can, and an American surrender inspired funding and recruitiment, and you ignore the most important parts of the NIE:

The Iraq conflict has become the “cause celebre” for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for the global jihadist movement. Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves to have failed we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight.

We assess that the Iraq jihad is shaping a new generation of terrorist leaders and operatives; perceived jihadist success there would inspire more fighters to continue the struggle elsewhere.

If Democratic reform efforts in Muslim majority nations progress over the next five years political participation probably would drive a wedge between intransigent extremists and groups willing to use the political process to achieve their local objectives.

The jihadists greatest vulnerability is that their ultimate political solution-an ultra-conservative interpretation of shari’a- based governance spanning the Muslim world is unpopular with the vast majority of Muslims. Exposing the religious and political straitjacket that is implied by the jihadists’ propaganda would help to divide them from the audience they seek to persuade.

United States-led counterterrorism efforts have seriously damaged the leadership of al-Qa’ida and disrupted it’s operations.

We assess that the global jihadist movement is decentralized, lacks a coherent global strategy, and is becoming more diffuse.

http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/De..._Judgments.pdf

EAGLE1 · Aug 14, 2007

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Trajan Octavian Titus said:

He means what he says when speaking to his fellow Muslims, but not when he talks to us Kufar infidels. What is so hard to grasp about that concept? You just continue to show your ignorance of Islamist ideology.

Click to expand...

Exactly, he means what he says when he's speaking to fellow muslims. I.e. the 1998 fatwa, which was a call to fellow muslims, by your own logic, was a genuine statement of their goals. It did not mention taking over the world.

I may not be any kind of expert but your none either, furthermore you're political analysis, knowledge of history and consistent willfull apology for all evils on your own side is doubly simple minded throughout.

No bringing up al-Taqqiya and Hudna to rebut your supposed offer by OBL for a truce does not make me a liar it just proves your ignorance on the subject of Jihad.

Click to expand...

You bring up Al taqiya and hudna as a comeback, however it does you no good. Why? Because how do you know whats dissimulation and whats genuine aims? Answer, you dont.
All you have to go on is his quotations from the Haddiths or the Quran. You conveniently ignore the fact of his stated aims in response to questions and the pattern of the attacks by Islamic radicals.

In the end, one can recognise the extreme world view of the strain of Islam represented by Al Qaeda without entertaining the hyperbolic and deceitful notion that they are attacking our 'civilisation'.

Just to expand for a moment, Bin Laden couldn't give a damn what Americans (or any westerners for that matter) get up to in their own country. He primarily wants to stop all western secular (and christian) interferance in Islamic countries. He doesn't want western influences to 'pollute' the thoughts of young Islamic girls so that they start to think pre-marital sex, or getting a job, or showing some skin isn't such a bad thing. He doesn't want young Islamic men to start thinking they can get on with their lives without concerning themselves with what the Quran has to say about everything all the time.

He hates America because the American government interferes (as he sees it) in the middle east practically non-stop. Despite what Americans may think plenty of other countries are just as 'free' as them, do Islamic extremists call them the great Satan and order jihads against their interests?

Billo_Really · Aug 14, 2007

Originally posted by EAGLE1
I may not be any kind of expert but your none either, furthermore you're political analysis, knowledge of history and consistent willfull apology for all evils on your own side is doubly simple minded throughout.

TOT's position is extremely irresponsible. He's part of a small percentage of American extremists who's number are dwindling rapidly. What's left of them will be weeded out in the next election. Over 70% of American's oppose what TOT advocates. I hope you can see that.

EAGLE1 · Aug 14, 2007

Actually Bill I can. I recognise true patriotic Americans when I see them having lived and worked in America before and having relatives there. What I found surprising at first is that there's alot of diverse opinion and an awful lot of concern for the common man in America by ordinary Americans, which should be no surprise given the amount of progressive ideas that have actually been acheived in America - which are actually the very things the world respects you for. You guys just need to fight to harder than ever these days since the coming together of the religious right and corporate interests.

Anyway lets not go on a tangent. Back to the roots of Islamic terrorism.

Trajan Octavian Titus · Aug 14, 2007

EAGLE1 said:
Exactly, he means what he says when he's speaking to fellow muslims. I.e. the 1998 fatwa, which was a call to fellow muslims, by your own logic, was a genuine statement of their goals. It did not mention taking over the world.

His statement regarding Islamist dominance of the entire world through offensive Jihad in no way what so ever contradicts his 1998 Fatwa.

I may not be any kind of expert but your none either, furthermore you're political analysis, knowledge of history and consistent willfull apology for all evils on your own side is doubly simple minded throughout.

Yada yada yada, one of OBL's stated goals is Islamist world domination, that is not a debatable point, it is an incontrovertable fact.

You bring up Al taqiya and hudna as a comeback, however it does you no good. Why? Because how do you know whats dissimulation and whats genuine aims? Answer, you dont.

Sorry his offer of a truce was THE quintesential example of the use of al-Taqiyya in an order to set up a hudna anyone who is not a western apologist for radical Islam can see this clear as day.

All you have to go on is his quotations from the Haddiths or the Quran. You conveniently ignore the fact of his stated aims in response to questions and the pattern of the attacks by Islamic radicals.

Islamic radicals the world over are telling you quite clearly that there goal is Islamist world domination, this is not a deniable point on the ideology of the Islamist movement OBL has said so himself and yet you deny it.

In the end, one can recognise the extreme world view of the strain of Islam represented by Al Qaeda without entertaining the hyperbolic and deceitful notion that they are attacking our 'civilisation'.

In the end it is you who is being decietful I produced the god damn quite it is no longer open to debate it is one of the stated goals of AQ is Islamist world domination.

Just to expand for a moment, Bin Laden couldn't give a damn what Americans (or any westerners for that matter) get up to in their own country. He primarily wants to stop all western secular (and christian) interferance in Islamic countries.

That's just one of his goals and that is because he wants to setup the caliphate, in which to springboard into his overall goal of Islamist world domination these are not debatable points on the subject.

He doesn't want western influences to 'pollute' the thoughts of young Islamic girls so that they start to think pre-marital sex, or getting a job, or showing some skin isn't such a bad thing. He doesn't want young Islamic men to start thinking they can get on with their lives without concerning themselves with what the Quran has to say about everything all the time.

No he doesn't want the road block which stops the resurgence of his caliphate that would be U.S. presence in the Middle East. While true that he is opposed to U.S. influence in the region because it leads to Jahilliya "unbelief as it was in the times prior to the revelations of Mohammed," what you don't grasp is the Islamists solution to that problem which is to destroy every secular regime the world over and replace it with a global wide caliphate under purritannical Sharia based Islam.

He hates America because the American government interferes (as he sees it) in the middle east practically non-stop. Despite what Americans may think plenty of other countries are just as 'free' as them, do Islamic extremists call them the great Satan and order jihads against their interests?

Yes radical Islamism is a global wide epidemic, it is not isolated to the U.S. for example the Dutch filmaker who was murdered by a radical Islamist, and the riots after the Danish cartoons. The reason why they focus mainly on the U.S. is because we are the greatest impedement to their goal of reestablishing the caliphate. However, there is debate amongst the Islamists on who to go after first some believe they should go after who they see as the U.S. client states in Europe first others want to go after the U.S. directly.

Radical Islam in The Netherlands:
A Case Study of a Failed European Policy

Radical Islam in The Netherlands: A Case Study of a Failed European Policy - Manfred Gerstenfeld

Trajan Octavian Titus · Aug 14, 2007

Billo_Really said:
TOT's position is extremely irresponsible. He's part of a small percentage of American extremists who's number are dwindling rapidly. What's left of them will be weeded out in the next election. Over 70% of American's oppose what TOT advocates. I hope you can see that.

Where do you come up with these figures? For the record only 3% of the U.S. supports the DemocRATs handeling of the war in Iraq, while only 54% are opposed to Bush's ability as CinC. And yes I do realize that a significant % of DemocRAT supporters do support radical Islam and are opposed to self determination in the Middle East, you are the quintessential example of these tyrant lovers.

EAGLE1 · Aug 14, 2007

I love it when people say 'end of debate' or 'period', its so persuasive!

If world domination was the goal he'd have said it incontrovertibly when he called Muslims to fight in his 1998 fatwa, Im using your very own logic thats says he means what he says when he speaks to muslims. END OF DEBATE
:lol:

or lets try this one, THATS NOT A DEBATEABLE POINT.:lol:

Islamic radicals the world over are telling you quite clearly that there goal is Islamist world domination, this is not a deniable point on the ideology of the Islamist movement OBL has said so himself and yet you deny it.

Id have thought youd be able to quote OBL saying it his own words by now ToT.

In the end it is you who is being decietful I produced the god damn quite it is no longer open to debate it is one of the stated goals of AQ is Islamist world domination.

God damn!? :lol: Well since you said God damn you must really really mean it. it is no longer open to debate :lol:

Trajan Octavian Titus · Aug 14, 2007

EAGLE1 said:
I love it when people say 'end of debate' or 'period', its so persuasive!

If world domination was the goal he'd have said it incontrovertibly when he called Muslims to fight in his 1998 fatwa, Im using your very own logic thats says he means what he says when he speaks to muslims. END OF DEBATE
:lol:

His other statements do not contradict the Fatwa.

or lets try this one, THATS NOT A DEBATEABLE POINT.:lol:

It's not a debatable point his own words prove that.

Id have thought youd be able to quote OBL saying it his own words by now ToT.

The fact that he quoted the Hadith means he's even more sincere.

God damn!? :lol: Well since you said God damn you must really really mean it. it is no longer open to debate :lol:

It's been proven conclusively there is nothing left to debate on that particular point.

Gardener · Aug 14, 2007

EAGLE1 said:
Actually Bill I can. I recognise true patriotic Americans when I see them .

True American patriots do not indulge in reactionary hyperbole, the likes of which they simply lift from pro-Islamist websites and repeat like a talking parrot. Neither do they simply toe the party line in regards to an almost devotional attachment to the current administration. Instead, they evaluate the world without the blinders of either the reactionary "It's always America's fault" attitude or the jingoistic "America, love it or leave it" crowd. Patriots want what's best for America as well as wanting America to live up to it's values, but that's a far, far cry from acting as a mindless apologist for totalitarianism.

Any discussion that places the onus for terrorist acts on the targets of the terrorism rather than the perpetrators is simply the repetition of a meme devised by the terrorists, themselves, to justify an act of murder. Any true patriot would see right through this sophistry and recognize the origins and objectives of this meme that acts as propaganda, and they would do so whether uttered by the terrorists directly, or through their network of sympathizers like Chomsky et al.

Any person who is reasonably intelligent and lacking a slavishly dogmatic mindset can read Bin Laden's letters to America and then read Chomsky and his countless disciples, and see that the talking points are one and the same. In repeating them, a person acts to legitimize them, and the act of legitimizing the talking points of Islamists is hardly the stuff of patriotism. It is mere stupidity.

When people learn to evaluate rather than just mimic, then they might call themselves patriots. Just repeating the mindless babble of the true believers or the reactionaries doesn't qualify.

dixon76710 · Aug 14, 2007

EAGLE1 said:
Exactly, he means what he says when he's speaking to fellow muslims. I.e. the 1998 fatwa, which was a call to fellow muslims, by your own logic, was a genuine statement of their goals. It did not mention taking over the world.

Click to expand...

Revealing how you accept some statements of Bin Laden as fact, while at the same time dismissing others as false because they dont fit in with your preconcieved perception of the situation.

Iriemon · Aug 14, 2007

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Well golly gee willickers you think that when you actually start fighting the enemy the enemy might fight back harder?

Of course. It seems obvious that by attacking and indefinitely occupying based on "mistakes" you would fuel the fires of anti-Ameircan radicalism and exponentially expand terrorism, which is of course exactly what has happened.

But the person to whom I was responding questioned that obvious proposition.

Hay newsflash, AQ was dead in the water in the early 90's but it was our withdrawal from Somolia that inspired many to join AQ and prompted the funding to start pumping again. OBL was broke and his organization was in the can, and an American surrender inspired funding and recruitiment, and you ignore the most important parts of the NIE:

Hogwash. In the early 90s Al-Queda was in its infancy and being formed. According to Bin Laden, it was US troops in Saudi Arabia and what he perceives and US support for what in his mind is a corrupt Saudi regime that motivated him to turn his targeting on America.

If American "surrender" is what inspires terrorists, then point the finger at Reagan for "cut-n-running" from Lebanon and Bush1 for cut-n-running from Iraq.

Trajan Octavian Titus · Aug 14, 2007

Iriemon said:
Of course. It seems obvious that by attacking and indefinitely occupying based on "mistakes" you would fuel the fires of anti-Ameircan radicalism and expand terrorism, which is of course exactly what has happened.

But the person to whom I was responding questioned that obvious proposition.

That's because your propostion is bullshit, Muslim terrorists kill and slaughter not because of what they experience but because of what they believe.

Hogwash. In the early 90s Al-Queda was in its infancy and being formed. According to Bin Laden, it was US troops in Saudi Arabia and what he perceives and US support for what in his mind is a corrupt Saudi regime that motivated him to turn his targeting on America.

You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about, "the base" which was formed in Afghanistan during the Afghan-Soviet war was not in its infancy, but by the time of Somalia the fundraising network had stopped producing funds it was not until America retreated from Somalia that the funding started once again pooring in because it convinced many that the U.S. was exactly what OBL said it was IE a "paper tiger."

If American "surrender" is what inspires terrorists, then point the finger at Reagan for "cut-n-running" from Lebanon and Bush1 for cut-n-running from Iraq.

A) Yes that is a black spot on Reagan's record.

B) The U.S. did not "cut-n-run" from Iraq, we set out with a clearly defined mission and that mission was completed almost perfectly

MSgt · Aug 14, 2007

EAGLE1 said:
which should be no surprise given the amount of progressive ideas that have actually been acheived in America - which are actually the very things the world respects you for.

And hates us.

MSgt · Aug 14, 2007

Iriemon said:
According to Bin Laden, it was US troops in Saudi Arabia and what he perceives and US support for what in his mind is a corrupt Saudi regime that motivated him to turn his targeting on America.

After all these years of discussions, I absolutely refuse to believe that you are not smarter than this. "According to Bin Ladden." Perhaps you should look into the other things he has mentioned and compare them to what every Islamic zealot in the region going back to Sayyid Qutb has said. According to all of them, this is far more about clinging to their fundamental root against what they see as the true threat to God's true religion.

Without the Gulf War, Bin Ladden was on his way to America. And if you think America has done some grave unforgivable sin to Muslims through our scapegoated foreign policy, look into the Soviet Union and their meddling in the Middle East. Look into Russia's and the rest of Europe's immediate support towards the new Israel and compare it to America's attitude at the time. Check out the year when America first supported Israel militarily. None of them get the heat that we get, which means this has everything to do with our cultural threat - a mission taken on by Nazi Germany and then the Soviets in the Middle East.

The root of Islamic terror is Islamic (what they believe). It is not our foriegn policy (what they need you to believe).

dixon76710 · Aug 14, 2007

GySgt said:
"According to Bin Ladden." Perhaps you should look into the other things he has mentioned and compare them to what every Islamic zealot in the region going back to Sayyid Qutb has said. According to all of them, this is far more about clinging to their fundamental root against what they see as the true threat to God's true religion....
The root of Islamic terror is Islamic (what they believe). It is not our foriegn policy (what they need you to believe).

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Take, for example, the 1786 meeting in London of Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, the Tripolitan ambassador to Britain...
These future United States presidents questioned the ambassador as to why his government was so hostile to the new American republic even though America had done nothing to provoke any such animosity. Ambassador Adja answered them, as they reported to the Continental Congress, “that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise.”

Iriemon · Aug 14, 2007

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
That's because your propostion is bullshit, Muslim terrorists kill and slaughter not because of what they experience but because of what they believe.

TOT's partisan, misinformed blather versus:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/613547-post283.html

You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about, "the base" which was formed in Afghanistan during the Afghan-Soviet war was not in its infancy, but by the time of Somalia the fundraising network had stopped producing funds it was not until America retreated from Somalia that the funding started once again pooring in because it convinced many that the U.S. was exactly what OBL said it was IE a "paper tiger."

I agree "infancy" was not the best word, developing is better. In the early 90s Al-Queda wasn't on the map and Bin Laden was viewed more of a financier.

A) Yes that is a black spot on Reagan's record.

Then why don't you be honest and mention that if you are claiming withdrawal is the source of terrorism.

B) The U.S. did not "cut-n-run" from Iraq, we set out with a clearly defined mission and that mission was completed almost perfectly

I personally agree.

Iriemon · Aug 14, 2007

Originally Posted by Iriemon
According to Bin Laden, it was US troops in Saudi Arabia and what he perceives and US support for what in his mind is a corrupt Saudi regime that motivated him to turn his targeting on America.

GySgt said:
After all these years of discussions, I absolutely refuse to believe that you are not smarter than this. "According to Bin Ladden." Perhaps you should look into the other things he has mentioned and compare them to what every Islamic zealot in the region going back to Sayyid Qutb has said.

I agree it is fair to question the accuracy and veracity of Bin Laden's statments.

But if you are going to do that, then what is the basis for asserting that the US withdrawal from Somolia was a motivating factor in Al-Queda's targeting of America?

According to all of them, this is far more about clinging to their fundamental root against what they see as the true threat to God's true religion.

I.e. America supporting what they view as illegitimate regimes like Saudi Arabia.

Without the Gulf War, Bin Ladden was on his way to America. And if you think America has done some grave unforgivable sin to Muslims through our scapegoated foreign policy, look into the Soviet Union and their meddling in the Middle East. Look into Russia's and the rest of Europe's immediate support towards the new Israel and compare it to America's attitude at the time. Check out the year when America first supported Israel militarily. None of them get the heat that we get, which means this has everything to do with our cultural threat - a mission taken on by Nazi Germany and then the Soviets in the Middle East.

1) Neither I nor Bin Laden claimed the Gulf War was the sole motivating cause.

2) They do not get the heat we get. No ****. Why do you suppose that is? Because we have attacked and occupied their lands based on freaking "mistakes".

The root of Islamic terror is Islamic (what they believe). It is not our foriegn policy (what they need you to believe).

Gysgt's partisan opinion versus:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/613547-post283.html

What is the root of Islamic Terrorism?

What is the root of Islamic Terrorism?

U.S. Foreign Policy

What they Believe

Other

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