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Iran Caught Red-Handed Shipping Arms to Taliban

what is a "high Jewish population"?

Why don't you look it up? In the lands that were originally to be Israel under the U.N. plan the Jews would have been in the majority.

Why would a purely secular state have a religious symbol on their flag?

I don't see why not, so long as their government guarantees freedom of religion, the U.S. has in god we trust on our money, which is not much different than the flag IMO.
 
Originally Posted by Trajan Octavian Titus
Nope the lands west of the Jordan have ALWAYS had a high Jewish population

Originally Posted by Iriemon
what is a "high Jewish population"?

Why don't you look it up? In the lands that were originally to be Israel under the U.N. plan the Jews would have been in the majority.

OK, since you are unable to defend your own statement.

By 1880, about 24,000 Jews were living in Palestine, out of a population of about 400,000.

MidEast Web - Brief History of of Palestine, Israel the Israel-Palestine Conflict (Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, Arab-Israel conflict, Middle East Conflict)

Yep. 24,000 is pretty damn "high."

LOL. Typical ToT.


I don't see why not, so long as their government guarantees freedom of religion, the U.S. has in god we trust on our money, which is not much different than the flag IMO.

Secular = "ot specifically relating to religion or to a religious body"
Star of David = specifically relating to the Jewis religion and religious body.
 
OK, since you are unable to defend your own statement.

By 1880, about 24,000 Jews were living in Palestine, out of a population of about 400,000.

MidEast Web - Brief History of of Palestine, Israel the Israel-Palestine Conflict (Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, Arab-Israel conflict, Middle East Conflict)

Yep. 24,000 is pretty damn "high."

Hay genious, Palestine included present day Jordan in 1880, 24,000 Jews living in the lands West of the Jordan River in 1880 when there was a probable total population to the lands west of the Jordan of 100,000 in 1880.



Secular = "ot specifically relating to religion or to a religious body"
Star of David = specifically relating to the Jewis religion and religious body.

Why? David is important in Christianity too.
 
Originally Posted by Iriemon
OK, since you are unable to defend your own statement.

By 1880, about 24,000 Jews were living in Palestine, out of a population of about 400,000.

MidEast Web - Brief History of of Palestine, Israel the Israel-Palestine Conflict (Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, Arab-Israel conflict, Middle East Conflict)

Yep. 24,000 is pretty damn "high."
Hay genious, Palestine included present day Jordan in 1880, 24,000 Jews living in the lands West of the Jordan River in 1880 when there was a probable total population to the lands west of the Jordan of 100,000 in 1880.

LOL pulling **** out of your *** again? If the author meant Jordon he would have said Jordan instead of Palestine.

24,000/400,000 = 6%. That's pretty "high" all right.


Why? David is important in Christianity too.

And now you're trying to argue that the star of David does not represent the jews. Sure thing.
 
And now you're trying to argue that the star of David does not represent the jews. Sure thing.
Are you being purposefully obtuse? I already explained to you that Israel is not a purely secular state. It was never intended to be. Have you ever read the UN Resolution that created the State of Israel? Perhaps you should.
 
Are you being purposefully obtuse? I already explained to you that Israel is not a purely secular state. It was never intended to be. Have you ever read the UN Resolution that created the State of Israel? Perhaps you should.

I was responding to Tot's claim otherwise. Maybe you should direct your ire towards him.
 
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LOL pulling **** out of your *** again? If the author meant Jordon he would have said Jordan instead of Palestine.

24,000/400,000 = 6%. That's pretty "high" all right.

Jordan didnt exist in 1880.
 
I was responding to Tot's claim otherwise. Maybe you should direct your ire towards him.
Maybe all of you should return to the topic of this thread.
 
LOL pulling **** out of your *** again? If the author meant Jordon he would have said Jordan instead of Palestine.

24,000/400,000 = 6%. That's pretty "high" all right.

Do you know what the British Mandate of Palestine consisted of? In 1880 Palestine included present day Jordan.

And now you're trying to argue that the star of David does not represent the jews. Sure thing.

So what? they start meetings of Congress with a prayer that doesn't mean we are not a secular society just so long as the religious elites aren't in control and people of one faith don't have less rights than another.
 
Do you know what the British Mandate of Palestine consisted of? In 1880 Palestine included present day Jordan.

And it was called "Trans-Jordon".

And so what is the basis for your assertion that when the author the article I cited referred to "Palestine" he was also including the area of modern day Jordon? And what is the basis for determining that 100,000 lived in the area of Palestine excluding modern day Jordon?

So what? they start meetings of Congress with a prayer that doesn't mean we are not a secular society just so long as the religious elites aren't in control and people of one faith don't have less rights than another.

I'll defer to Tasha's request on this one. Maybe she'll feel like explaining to you that Isreal is not a purely secular state after she chastized me for debating it with you.
 
And it was called "Trans-Jordon".


Trans-Jordan didnt exist until 1921. 1880 it was part of the ottoman empire, the Vilayet of Syria, some of it in Hejaz. "Palestine" did not exist.
 
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Trans-Jordan didnt exist until 1921. 1880 it was part of the ottoman empire, the Vilayet of Syria, some of it in Hejaz. "Palestine" did not exist.

The author must have had something in mind when he the population of Palestine was about 400,000 in 1880.
 
The author must have had something in mind when he the population of Palestine was about 400,000 in 1880.


Who knows. Article 2 of the Palestinian national charter says

"Article 2. Palestine, within the frontiers that existed under the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit."

That would seem to include Jordan. 1880 seems kind of irrelevant since the claim that is being disputed is that

"In the lands that were originally to be Israel under the U.N. plan the Jews would have been in the majority."

Un Plan wasnt until 1947. But I suspect you wanted to avoid all the Jews that immigrated between 1880 and 1947 to bolster your arguements.
 
Nah. It is only to bigots who only see one see one side to whom I would appear to be "lacking in critical judgement" because I point out facts inconsistent with their prejudicial conceptions.


Well we have finally degenerated to name calling so I guess its over.
You have yet to point out something with substance but at least we tried.

In the end it does not matter what you believe about the koran, hadiths, and sunna or what I believe about them because only those who take the holy scripture (or unholy depending on how you look at it) seriously enough to act upon the negative aspects of its instruction matter in the real world.

What really matters is what people like this fellow...an ex-terrorist believes is what matters in the real world.

My plea to fellow Muslims: you must renounce terror

"Hassan Butt, who was once a member of radical group Al-Muhajiroun, raising funds for extremists and calling for attacks on British citizens, explains why he was wrong"

"it isn't enough for Muslims to say that because they feel at home in Britain they can simply ignore those passages of the Koran which instruct on killing unbelievers."

"Muslim scholars must go back to the books and come forward with a refashioned set of rules and a revised understanding of the rights and responsibilities of Muslims whose homes and souls are firmly planted in what I'd like to term the Land of Co-existence. And when this new theological territory is opened up, Western Muslims will be able to liberate themselves from defunct models of the world, rewrite the rules of interaction and perhaps we will discover that the concept of killing in the name of Islam is no more than an anachronism"


I seriously wish you were correct in your assertions (The world would be a much better place if so) but you just....aren't.


Hezbollah agent played deaf before confessing


"Daqduq and the Iraqi militia commanders with whom he worked have admitted working with Iran's Quds Force.

The Iranian special operations force "is using Lebanese Hezbollah essentially as a proxy, as a surrogate, in Iraq"
 
Who knows. Article 2 of the Palestinian national charter says

"Article 2. Palestine, within the frontiers that existed under the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit."

That would seem to include Jordan. 1880 seems kind of irrelevant since the claim that is being disputed is that

"In the lands that were originally to be Israel under the U.N. plan the Jews would have been in the majority."

Un Plan wasnt until 1947. But I suspect you wanted to avoid all the Jews that immigrated between 1880 and 1947 to bolster your arguements.

No, the claim that is being disputed is that:

Nope the lands west of the Jordan have ALWAYS had a high Jewish population

I asked TOT to back up his claim, notwithstanding his record of making credible assertions. In typical TOT fashion, he responded with "look it up yourself."

I did, and the first article I found was the one cited that stated that in 1880, the Jewish population of Palestine was 24,000 out of a total of 400,000. That would be 6%, which would only be "high" IMO if you had an extremely biased (or bigoted) view towards the region.

Tot's response was that the author must have been including the population of what is now Jordon, and that the population of Palestine was really only 100,000, although he was not able to validate either assertion.
 
I do not support Iran or Islam or anything else nor support everything they do. My arguments in this thread and my objections are based upon questions about what appear to be misleading and one sided presentations and assertions.

There are many anti-Islam neocon bigots on this board who hate Muslims and are itching to get the US into a war with Iran, who intentionally misrepresent, misimply, if not outright fabricate things about Islam and Iran in order to justify their warmongering goals. They present half truths, biased sources, and questionable statements as fact to further their goals.

IMO, whatever your view of Islam or Iran, it does not justify lying about it to promote hatred and war.

This thread is a perfect example. The OP was a blog that said Iran was caught red handed supplying arms to the Taliban, and post after post was calling to bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran.

I posted articles showing that the top US General in charge of NATO in Afganistan said there was no proof that the Iranian government was behind the arms shipment. I noted that throughout that last century the US has regularly maintained a right to supply beligerents as a neutral and had done so repeatedly.

For that I am labelled by the bigots as "pro-terrorist".

The part about the Koran arose because I questioned the assertion of whether the Koran commands Muslims to kill Christians and Jews, an assertion I have seen many times in this forum. I still have not seen where it does, and you admit that that is not what the Koran says.

For that I am labelled by the bigots as "anti-freedom".

I have a lot of issues with Muslim culture and Iran. But that does not justify misrepresenting things. That does not justify folks quoting certain phrases of the Koran to show what an evil religion is while ignoring all the passages to the contrary.

If I appear to be "lacking in critical judgement" it is because I dare to question the accuracy of claims and assertions about Iran and Islam that all to often have turned out to be pure bullshit propoganda.

...
I seriously wish you were correct in your assertions (The world would be a much better place if so) but you just....aren't.
...

I stand by my assertions as correct and stand ready to defend them if you wish to back up your claim and point out specifically which assertion of mine is incorrect.
 
Because in 1880 Palestine consisted of Jordan.

If the author wrote the article in 1880, you'd have a point.

Anything else you have to back up your claim that "the lands west of the Jordan have ALWAYS had a high Jewish population"?
 
Turkey by being on the wrong side of WW1.



LOL, 70% of the British Mandate of Palestine is present day Jordan IE Arab Palestine.


It was actually a rhetorical question. England and France have been trying to gain control of the region during the crusaders years. Great Britain used arabs to fight the turks as a promise to the arabs soveriegnity but was betrayed. This is why there is a large distrust to westerners. The middle east was essentially one country before GB and France decided to segment the territory for their own benefit. Do you think these folks don't know their history?
 
I don't see why not, so long as their government guarantees freedom of religion, the U.S. has in god we trust on our money, which is not much different than the flag IMO.

Back in the battle for jerusalem, the muslims allowed this type of practice. Jews, Christians and Muslims to practice their religion in jerusalem. The leaders of the christians through the crusades did not want this practice. they wanted it to be only chrisitians. If the crusades woud have left everything alone, the middle east might still be peaceful today. Similar to us putting our nose in the region, this is what some of the muslims are thinking.. ohhhh ohhh here comes the crusaders again. Here comes the betrayal of westerners again. Our motivation is still oil, and don't ever forget about that. Fighting for peoples freedom is a smoke screen.
 
Back in the battle for jerusalem, the muslims allowed this type of practice.

That's a lie infact one of the reasons for the crusades were the persecution of Christian pilgrims. Christians and Jews were treated as Dimmi's by the Muslims, infact they still are.

The leaders of the christians through the crusades did not want this practice.

The crusades were started because the Muslims conquered Christian lands, Jerusalem belonged to the Christians the Muslims conquered it.

they wanted it to be only chrisitians. If the crusades woud have left everything alone, the middle east might still be peaceful today.

More lies, the crusades were retaliatory it was the Muslims who brought violence into the equation when they began conquering Christian lands from North Africa to Spain, so stop with your revisionist history.

Similar to us putting our nose in the region,

By your logic we have more of a right to be there than they do as these lands were ALL originally Christian.

this is what some of the muslims are thinking.. ohhhh ohhh here comes the crusaders again. Here comes the betrayal of westerners again.

Quid pro quo, if they don't want us there then they can get the hell out of here.

Our motivation is still oil, and don't ever forget about that. Fighting for peoples freedom is a smoke screen.

To bad for you the majority of our oil doesn't come from the ME.
 
No, the claim that is being disputed is that:



I asked TOT to back up his claim, notwithstanding his record of making credible assertions. In typical TOT fashion, he responded with "look it up yourself."

I did, and the first article I found was the one cited that stated that in 1880, the Jewish population of Palestine was 24,000 out of a total of 400,000. That would be 6%, which would only be "high" IMO if you had an extremely biased (or bigoted) view towards the region.

Tot's response was that the author must have been including the population of what is now Jordon, and that the population of Palestine was really only 100,000, although he was not able to validate either assertion.

In 1880 Palestine included more than just Israel it included Jordan as well that is a matter of the historical record.
 
It was actually a rhetorical question. England and France have been trying to gain control of the region during the crusaders years.

No they were trying to regain control after the Muslms conquered Christian lands, so stop with your revisionist history.

Great Britain used arabs to fight the turks as a promise to the arabs soveriegnity but was betrayed.

Arabs fought alongside the turks too, so what the hell is your point?

This is why there is a large distrust to westerners. The middle east was essentially one country

Ya it was called the Ottoman empire.
 
I stand by my assertions as correct and stand ready to defend them if you wish to back up your claim and point out specifically which assertion of mine is incorrect.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/584617-post595.html

Already taken care of.

Hassan Butt talks about the koran instruction on the killing of unbelievers and the Hezbollah guy confessed to working with Iranian forces for nefarious purposes.

You may try to declassify jews and christians as a separate class of unblievers but like I said before. It does not matter what you or I think on this subject. It only matters to people willing to act on that belief. The actions currently ongoing speak far louder than anything I have to say or you for that matter.

For example:
Breaking news: Al Qaeda blamed for Yemen attack
"Yemeni security officials had been warned about a possible al Qaeda attack, but said Tuesday they did not think it would include the suicide bombing that killed a group of Spanish tourists visiting a remote temple."

U.S. Implicates Iran in Jan. Attack

" an extensive Quds Force program was revealed through interrogations of an alleged Lebanese Hezbollah operative, Ali Mussa Dakdouk, and an Iraqi militant, Qais al-Khazaali, along with documents seized with them. Both men were captured in March in the southern city of Basra.

The Quds Force is providing up to $3 million a month to Iraqi militants and bringing them to three training camps outside Tehran to learn how to carry out bombings, raids and kidnappings, Bergner said. Most of those who trained in Iran were extremists who broke away from Iraqi Shiite militias, including the Mahdi Army loyal to anti-U.S. cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, he said.

Dakdouk, a 24-year veteran of Hezbollah, was sent to Iraq "as a surrogate for the Iranian Quds Force" to finance and arm militant cells known as "special groups," the general said. "



I do not expect anything from you however.
The patented fingers in the ears la la la tactic is too practiced and deep rooted to shake no matter what evidence is presented. At least Billo can admit when he is wrong (He does it all the time) and deserves some respect for that.


You may momentarily stand by your assertions but unfortunately gravity always overcomes in the end. (Walking on the air is always one my favorite parts too)

wile-e-coyote.jpg


-lw
 
Originally Posted by Iriemon
I stand by my assertions as correct and stand ready to defend them if you wish to back up your claim and point out specifically which assertion of mine is incorrect.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/584617-post595.html

Already taken care of.

Hassan Butt talks about the koran instruction on the killing of unbelievers and the Hezbollah guy confessed to working with Iranian forces for nefarious purposes.

You may try to declassify jews and christians as a separate class of unblievers but like I said before. It does not matter what you or I think on this subject. It only matters to people willing to act on that belief. The actions currently ongoing speak far louder than anything I have to say or you for that matter.

Sure. And the fact that Christians have lived in Iraq and Jews have lived in Iran for many hundreds of years proves my point that most Muslims obviously believe that the Koran does mandate slaying Christians and Jews. As do the citations you posted in this thread.

For example:
Breaking news: Al Qaeda blamed for Yemen attack
"Yemeni security officials had been warned about a possible al Qaeda attack, but said Tuesday they did not think it would include the suicide bombing that killed a group of Spanish tourists visiting a remote temple."

U.S. Implicates Iran in Jan. Attack

" an extensive Quds Force program was revealed through interrogations of an alleged Lebanese Hezbollah operative, Ali Mussa Dakdouk, and an Iraqi militant, Qais al-Khazaali, along with documents seized with them. Both men were captured in March in the southern city of Basra.

The Quds Force is providing up to $3 million a month to Iraqi militants and bringing them to three training camps outside Tehran to learn how to carry out bombings, raids and kidnappings, Bergner said. Most of those who trained in Iran were extremists who broke away from Iraqi Shiite militias, including the Mahdi Army loyal to anti-U.S. cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, he said.

Dakdouk, a 24-year veteran of Hezbollah, was sent to Iraq "as a surrogate for the Iranian Quds Force" to finance and arm militant cells known as "special groups," the general said. "

I do not expect anything from you however.
The patented fingers in the ears la la la tactic is too practiced and deep rooted to shake no matter what evidence is presented. At least Billo can admit when he is wrong (He does it all the time) and deserves some respect for that.

You may momentarily stand by your assertions but unfortunately gravity always overcomes in the end. (Walking on the air is always one my favorite parts too)

wile-e-coyote.jpg


-lw

The fact that Muslim groups do not accept and resist a Jewish state in what they view as their holy lands does not undermine my assertions as to whether the Koran commands Muslims to slay Christians and Jews in any way whatsoever.

That would be like pointing to the reconquest of Spain, or the crusades, or the German mass murder of Jews as proof that the Bible commands Christians to slay Jews and Muslims.
 
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