Niftydrifty’s closing remarks, part two of three Quote:
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Originally Posted by M14 Shooter And the list goes on and on and on – each of the 10 most liberal senators (John Kerry: The Most Liberal Senator? An Analysis) all support the banning of ‘assault weapons’, and therefore do NOT agree with me.:
[snip]
Let us compare these people to the positions of the 10 most conservative Senators:
Top 10 Most Conservative Senators - HUMAN EVENTS
[snip] |
Comparing the “10 most ideologically extreme” of anything does nothing to change the facts about what most Americans believe. M14 Shooter has engaged in a pointless exercise. It is obvious why the “10 most ideologically extreme” opinions on any given topic aren’t going to match the opinions of most people, let alone most Liberals or Conservatives.
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Originally Posted by M14 Shooter If he wishes, my opponent can try dismiss the power, the clarity, and the relevancy of this comparative information, all of which show beyond a doubt that prominent liberal Democrats, the leaders of the liberal wing of the Democratic party, representing the views of the millions upon millions of liberal people that voted for them, are espousing the liberal position of what guns are protected by the 2nd, and that their position contrasts sharply to those of Conservatives – but to do so is to self-sodomize his credibility as a sentient being. |
Done. It all can be quite easily dismissed. What do most people believe? Is it the identical to what our elected leaders believe? M14 Shooter seems to think so.
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Originally Posted by M14 Shooter Note that the ACTUAL liberal position, illustrated above and below, that certain modern weapons are NOT protected by the 2nd is FAR different than the his so-called ‘liberal position’ of the ‘broad consensus’ that ‘all modern firearms are protected by the 2nd’ my opponent claims to have argued. |
What M14 Shooter fails to grasp is that all people, Left, Right and other, tend to agree that the second amendment covers individual ownership of “arms” but that they’d also like to see restrictions anyway. M14 Shooter also fails to grasp there is more talk of repealing the second amendment than of quibbling over what it covers. M14 Shooter neglected to mention this last point at all in his last post. A convenient omission on his part.
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Originally Posted by M14 Shooter My opponent also dismisses the views of liberal anti-gun organizations noted previously, even though one of –his- sources lists one of them as a resource for further investigation of the liberal position on gun control. Searching for other liberal organizations and their stances on guns, and picking out the most prominent of those found, we find many similar positions: [snip] |
I’ve already talked about how the opinions and motivations of activist groups can differ from the opinions of most people. I’m talking about the opinions of most people, while M14 Shooter loves to present anecdotal evidence.
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Originally Posted by M14 Shooter And to –further- illustrate the point, that there is NO consensus across ideology and party let us look at the vote that passed the 1994 ‘assault weapon’ ban.
This bill passed the house 216-214,
216 yeas: 177 Dems 38 Republicans
214 nays: 77 Dems 137 Republicans http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1994/roll156.xml |
Does anyone really believe that the opinions of the members of the House mirror the opinions of most people?
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Originally Posted by M14 Shooter Let’s also look at the 2004 senate vote to re-up the ‘assault weapon’ ban.
52 yeas: 10 Republicans, 41 Dems, 1 independent
47 nays: 6 Dems, 41 Republicans.
U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote |
Does anyone really believe that the opinions of the members of the Senate mirror the opinions of most people?
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Originally Posted by M14 Shooter These votes dispel any illusion that there is general partisan agreement on this issue. It should be plain that -one- side supports the -liberal- position here that, since it is, indeed, “necessary”, to ban certain modern firearms, not ALL modern firearms are protected by the 2nd. |
Only if one doesn’t understand that the opinions of Congress aren't the identical opinions of the general public. Only if one ignores points made before about repealing the second.
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Originally Posted by M14 Shooter Of course, since my opponent seems to think that polls are the be-all end all of evidence useful in a debate, let’s look at a few that specifically asks about support for banning guns:
Source:
Guns |
When discussing public opinion, of course they are.
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Originally Posted by M14 Shooter ABC news, 4-22-07
67-80% support banning ‘assault weapons’, 1994-2007
32-38% support banning handguns, 1999-2007
CBS/NYT 4-22-07
33-43% support banning handguns, 1999-2007
Pew research 4-22-07
45-37% support banning handguns, 1993-2007
Gallup 9-12-2006
41-37% support banning handguns 1981-2006
Gallup 10-14 2004
50% support banning ‘assault weapons’
NBC/WSJ 9-19-2004
61% “dissatisfied” that ‘assault weapons’ no longer banned
Harris 9-13-2004
71% favor the continuation of the ‘assault weapon’ ban
So:
50-80% of people support banning ‘assault weapons’
32-45% of people support banning handguns
IF, as my opponent suggests, that there is a broad consensus that the 2nd protects the individual right to own a gun, then, given the large percentages of people that support banning guns, there is clearly NO “consensus of opinion amongst the entire US population, regardless of ideology (or just about every other variable)” that the 2nd protects all modern firearms, and that there is significant variance of opinions across ideological and partisan lines. |
I spoke about a consensus across ideologies and I used polls that disclosed ideological leanings and the poll results broken down by those variables. M14 Shooter didn’t.
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Originally Posted by M14 Shooter To continue to show how invalid his ‘broad consensus’ argument really is – from the Harris poll noted above: Quote: |
Republicans and Democrats hold very different views on the overall issue of making gun control stricter. Just under half (48%) of Republicans favor making gun control stricter and 41 percent favor making it less strict. This compares to Democrats who by 72 to 21 percent favor stricter gun control. U.S. adults who classify themselves as Independent feel that gun control should be made stricter (63% to 32%).
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M14 Shooter left out this portion of the article:
“… a substantial majority (71%) of all U.S. adults favors continuation of this ban. Support for the ban is equally favored across all groups including Republicans, Democrats and Independents.” M14 Shooter also neglected to mention what is meant in his quote by “stricter” gun control favored by Democrats. Would it have anything to do with arms protected by the second amendment? The article isn’t clear at all. It doesn’t mention it. Making vague inferences and pretending that they’re actual, is just fine for M14 Shooter. Perhaps “stricter” gun control refers to waiting periods and registration numbers, which Conservatives also favor, just not as much? I won’t eagerly make such assumptions. I’ll leave that to M14 Shooter.
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Originally Posted by M14 Shooter And, again, to the argument that there is consensus between right/left GOP/Dem regarding the basic tenets of gun control, that these ideological groups echo one another regarding gun control:
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• Liberals and populists generally favor more gun laws. Look for buzzwords like "more registration" or "more licensing" to describe seeking further restrictions legal ownership; or "close the loopholes" and "restrict access" for further restrictions on illegal ownership.
• Moderate liberals and populists will generally favor more restrictions on ownership while paying lip-service "sportsmen's rights" or respecting "the right of self-protection." A moderate compromise is to "extend waiting periods" before allowing ownership, to perform "background checks" of varying degrees of severity.
• Conservatives and libertarians generally oppose gun laws. Look for buzzwords like "Second Amendment rights" or "allow concealed carry". A call for "instant background checks" pays lip-service to gun-control advocates: it sounds like a restriction, but means allowing purchasing guns on the spot.
• Moderate conservatives and libertarians oppose gun laws while acknowledging that restrictions are inevitable. Look for buzzwords like "enforce existing gun laws," which implies not passing any NEW gun laws. Similarly, "more strict enforcement" of gun laws implies a pro-Gun Rights stance, unless it is accompanied by a call for new gun laws.
• Centrists and moderates from both the right and left generally support restrictions on juvenile access to guns, especially in the wake of tragedies like Littleton and other gun-related deaths.
SpeakOut.com - Gun Control |
M14 Shooter has pasted a list of bullet points explaining what the typical ideological labels “generally” believe. No evidence is presented to support these opinions. While I point to opinion polls and data, M14 Shooter points to how the political scene seems to appear to somebody.
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Originally Posted by M14 Shooter Then, compare:
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Liberal view on gun control
The conflict here involves distrust of government, individual responsibility, and attitudes towards violence within society. Giving everyone a mechanism to hurt other people quickly, easily, and at a distance is dangerous; people are more likely to do it. On the other hand, a basic liberal principle is that people should be trusted, and that large organizations should not. One approach to resolving this conflict is the Swiss system, in which large numbers of people own guns, but they are registered such that usage can be easily traced; such weapons are kept in a manner that reduces the possibility of sudden, irrational use. Many liberals prefer the outright banning of guns intended only to kill people, on the grounds that such weapons are by now ineffective in dealing with abuse of power by government.
Turn Left: Liberalism FAQ
(Please note that this source, one put forth by my opponent, links to the Brady Campaign as a extension of its remarks on gun control) |
While I point to opinion polls and data, M14 Shooter points to how the political scene seems to appear to somebody. Is “many liberals” the same as “most liberals?” M14 Shooter hopes that no one will notice these details, as he pastes and pastes and pastes.