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Old 06-09-07, 03:07 PM   #4 (permalink)
Felicity
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Re: niftydrifty vs. Felicity: The Eucharist, real or symbolic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by niftydrifty View Post
To interpret what Jesus says in John 6 in any literal fashion, is to deny the metaphorical ways in which Christ spoke about himself.
No—I do not agree. To acknowledge that Jesus (as any human communicators do) conveyed metaphorical/symbolic meaning AND concrete/literal meaning in his communications is the only logical conclusion.

All Christians believe that Jesus, at different times, used parable and metaphor to communicate, but He also was very clear in his literal meaning at other times. So, how do we determine whether Jesus was speaking metaphorically or literally in John 6? We look at specifically Jesus’ words in John 6 in context, and we look to other similar examples elsewhere.

Quote:
In John 8, Jesus said, "I am the light of the world." Why do we not believe that Christ was LITERALLY a light?
Let’s look at that in context:

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5 Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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So the Pharisees said to him, "You testify on your own behalf, so your testimony cannot be verified."
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Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I do testify on my own behalf, my testimony can be verified, 6 because I know where I came from and where I am going. But you do not know where I come from or where I am going.
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You judge by appearances, 7 but I do not judge anyone.
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And even if I should judge, my judgment is valid, because I am not alone, but it is I and the Father who sent me.
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Even in your law 8 it is written that the testimony of two men can be verified.
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I testify on my behalf and so does the Father who sent me."
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So they said to him, "Where is your father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also."
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He spoke these words while teaching in the treasury in the temple area. But no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come.


First—Jesus is clear that he is speaking metaphorically in that he connects “the light of the world” to “the light of life.” Second, Jesus is telling the Pharisees who doubt Him that they judge by appearances, but that Jesus has the authority of God and so “appearances” are of no worth. Think about that in relation to the “appearance” of bread and wine at Eucharist—the appearance of bread and wine is of no worth, because it is the Substance that is Jesus that is the matter.


Quote:
In John 10, Jesus said, "I am the door of the sheep." In John 10, Jeusus also said, "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." But Jesus was not literally a shepherd, was he? Was he lying?

Again, let's look in context:
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1 2 "Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever does not enter a sheepfold through the gate but climbs over elsewhere is a thief and a robber.
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But whoever enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep.
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The gatekeeper opens it for him, and the sheep hear his voice, as he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
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3 When he has driven out all his own, he walks ahead of them, and the sheep follow him, because they recognize his voice.
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But they will not follow a stranger; they will run away from him, because they do not recognize the voice of strangers."
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Although Jesus used this figure of speech, 4 they did not realize what he was trying to tell them.
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5 So Jesus said again, "Amen, amen, I say to you, I am the gate for the sheep.
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6 All who came [before me] are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.
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I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture.
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A thief comes only to steal and slaughter and destroy; I came so that they might have life and have it more abundantly.
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I am the good shepherd. A good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
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A hired man, who is not a shepherd and whose sheep are not his own, sees a wolf coming and leaves the sheep and runs away, and the wolf catches and scatters them.
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This is because he works for pay and has no concern for the sheep.
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I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me,
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just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep.


Jesus tells a story and then clarifies his metaphor for His disciples. Jesus is careful to explain fully what he is saying to them through his use of metaphorical language.


CONTINUED...
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