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Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if not why not?

Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

The US is the last remaining super power in the world. This is a given fact and is not subject to subjective discussion.

Let me correct that.. The powers of the US is declining, the debate is if the superpower of the US is OVER now or was ever there, which is very likely. :shock: :confused:
 
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Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

Let me correct that..

The US WAS the last superpower that will ever exist, the debate is if that is OVER now, which is very likely. :shock: :confused:
Last I looked, we are still quite the super power.
Still the #1 economy in the world
Unchallenged militarily
and still the world leader in research and innovation.
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

Last I looked, we are still quite the super power.
Still the #1 economy in the world
Unchallenged militarily
and still the world leader in research and innovation.


Actually #2 economically behind the European Union..
#1 Military, yes.. But the combined forces of Europe is not so far behind, and we are allies, so why do you need to have the best military anymore.. Those two militaries combined are unchallenged..

The US military alone, would crumble if they did the wrong thing. :2wave:
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

The drive point I'm trying to reach with this was that Napoleon easily swept aside the divided Germany when he invaded and went all the way through Russia. Almost as if Germany didn't exist - well it didn't anyway, not in the sense of it after 1871.
No, there were battles in Jena and Auerstedt in 1806 and the Pruzzian army has been defeated there, much like the combined Austriansand Russian forces before in Austerlitz. The Pruzzians very much reorganized the military after this and got stronger when before this way.

Germany was not united, when Napoleon came, it had like 300 parts, states, independent cities and independent archbishoprics. Napoleon reorganized German terrritories, which lead to bigger states and sometimes promoted the princes of these bigger states. This way Saxony became a kingdom for instance. These new, bigger states sided with Napoleon then.

So, yes, the fact, that Germany was not united, helped Napoleon in the first place.

The parts given away are economical. You still do not have a united political entity, required for any power seeking to compete with the US or China today. The same way that Portugal and Spain became the first global powers before any European nation. Why? they were united.
The same reason Rome was so powerful, the Romans were united.
The parts given away are mostly about economy. Portugal and Spain were competitors, they did not share their sea maps for instance. They did not fight each other and they traded with each other.

Chinglish? lol
I had to think twice what you mean here, I was thinking it's like Klingon language first :mrgreen:
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

Actually #2 economically behind the European Union..
Proof there of?

Maximus Zeebra said:
#1 Military, yes.. But the combined forces of Europe is not so far behind, and we are allies, so why do you need to have the best military anymore.. Those two militaries combined are unchallenged..
Why? simply because that is one of the requirements of a superpower.

Maximus Zeebra said:
The US military alone, would crumble if they did the wrong thing.
Any military would crumble if it did the wrong thing. And it wouldn't be a strong military if it did the wrong things.
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

The parts given away are mostly about economy. Portugal and Spain were competitors, they did not share their sea maps for instance. They did not fight each other and they traded with each other.
Again, no united entity with "full" political control and military control. It's the only way that europe will ever be able to truly compete with the likes of China and the US. Also without GB in the equation, Europe can never even hope to achieve the power status that the US has today.

Volker said:
I had to think twice what you mean here, I was thinking it's like Klingon language first :mrgreen:
Na, they're still too far away to be of any relevance. Chinglish baby!
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

Proof there of?
The combined GDP of the European Union is about 1 trillion larger than that of the US.
According from everything from CIA world factbook to wikipedia, the budgets of the European Union in Euros is slightly lower than that of the US, but with and exchange rate of 1.20, the European Union has a GDP in dollar terms quoted from various sources of above 13 trillion $ while the US is slightly above 12 trillion $...

To quote the International Monetary fund and the World bank..

IMF...
"— European Union 12,427,413
1 United States 12,277,583
2 People's Republic of China 9,412,361"

World bank...
"— European Union 12,626,921
1 United States 12,409,465"

According to wikipedia, if everything within the European Union is combined you get..

GDP (2006)
- Total
- Per capita 1st if ranked[4]
$13.31 trillion[5]
$28,100[5]


But hey, this is the total, per capita it is lower..


Why? simply because that is one of the requirements of a superpower.

Any military would crumble if it did the wrong thing. And it wouldn't be a strong military if it did the wrong things.

I simply mean, that the US couldnt even fight Iraq without getting overstretched and in trouble.. Serious trouble they would have with Iran..
Not to mention if some bigger nation like China with 1.5 billion people had a conflict with the US.. Then I think the US is the one who have to resort to diplomacy at all cost.

The US isnt really a superpower anymore, they only have the biggest military in the world, but hey, if someone wanted to fight a war, I am sure the US military would struggle greatly to fight other large nations or blocks..
The US military is worthless as a superpower weapon..

Influence and soft power is what is important, and hey, the US lost most of that after 911 with their aggression and their addiction to military, war and conflict.
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

Again, no united entity with "full" political control and military control. It's the only way that europe will ever be able to truly compete with the likes of China and the US. Also without GB in the equation, Europe can never even hope to achieve the power status that the US has today.
This is possible.

Na, they're still too far away to be of any relevance. Chinglish baby!
I checked the word in Wikipedia, I never heard about it before.
Yes, I'm very optimistic, this language will make it :mrgreen:
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

The combined GDP of the European Union is about 1 trillion larger than that of the US.
According from everything from CIA world factbook to wikipedia, the budgets of the European Union in Euros is slightly lower than that of the US, but with and exchange rate of 1.20, the European Union has a GDP in dollar terms quoted from various sources of above 13 trillion $ while the US is slightly above 12 trillion $...

To quote the International Monetary fund and the World bank..

IMF...
"— European Union 12,427,413
1 United States 12,277,583
2 People's Republic of China 9,412,361"

World bank...
"— European Union 12,626,921
1 United States 12,409,465"

According to wikipedia, if everything within the European Union is combined you get..

GDP (2006)
- Total
- Per capita 1st if ranked[4]
$13.31 trillion[5]
$28,100[5]


But hey, this is the total, per capita it is lower.
Forgive me for having trouble trusting the WIKI site since it even includes GB as an EU member.
Now what's relevent is growth. The US has a very healthy economic growth rate, quite lacking in the EU as a whole, though shared amongst some individual nations - ie Czech.
Also there's this.
So overall the US is still quite the leader. The only challenger that would be a good welcome to increase competition is China.

Maximus Zeebra said:
I simply mean, that the US couldnt even fight Iraq without getting overstretched and in trouble.. Serious trouble they would have with Iran..
Not to mention if some bigger nation like China with 1.5 billion people had a conflict with the US.. Then I think the US is the one who have to resort to diplomacy at all cost.

The US isnt really a superpower anymore, they only have the biggest military in the world, but hey, if someone wanted to fight a war, I am sure the US military would struggle greatly to fight other large nations or blocks..
The US military is worthless as a superpower weapon..

Influence and soft power is what is important, and hey, the US lost most of that after 911 with their aggression and their addiction to military, war and conflict.
You need to seperate tactical from policy.
Tactically our Military is quite superior. Though policywise our administration is quite a failure recently.
The US is the only nation that engages to support vast humanitarian efforts - without the US on board any international issue, it's useless - hence the super power status.
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

Forgive me for having trouble trusting the WIKI site since it even includes GB as an EU member.
Now what's relevent is growth. The US has a very healthy economic growth rate, quite lacking in the EU as a whole, though shared amongst some individual nations - ie Czech.
Also there's this.
So overall the US is still quite the leader. The only challenger that would be a good welcome to increase competition is China.
Actually, GB is a member of the EU.. Are you joking or something or dont you know?
Do you not count it as a member because Tony Blair has been a puppet of Bush?

Actually, counting the expanded EU, the growth including the growth we got with new member states, the EU far outgrew the US the last 10 years, they even outgrew China..
In real macroeconomic terms, the EU outgrew the US the last quarter after a postive trend that seems to be continuing..

Now, think about this.. What is easiest?

1 To grow to 40.000 GDP per capita from 27.000 GDP per capita, OR
2 Grow from 37.000 GDP per capita to 50.000 GDP per capita?

Number 1 is the challenge the EU has to keep up with the US, if they do they will end up with a total capita of around 20 trillion.

Number 2 is the challenge of the US if they want to keep up with the EU if the EU reach the number 1 goal, still the US would only have 15 trillion in total capita then..

If the EU and the US par on GDP per capita, the total economic volume of the EU will be almost twice as big as that of the US, MEANING the US have to keep the GDP twice as high to have the same total output..

You need to seperate tactical from policy.
Tactically our Military is quite superior. Though policywise our administration is quite a failure recently.
The US is the only nation that engages to support vast humanitarian efforts - without the US on board any international issue, it's useless - hence the super power status.

Hah, humanitarian efforts... The US you are talking about?

Lots of internation issues go on without the US, and as they exclude themself, the whole world goes on without them.. Kyoto is one mentionable thing. Iraq war is another.. Neglecting the opinions of France and Germany on Iraq, cost the US dear.. They have lost most of the popular support from their allied countries, and are now in unprecedented trouble in Iraq, no help they will get either..
Their army is not really going to help them out it seems, the US pushed themself into trouble and no one seems to be ready to help them out of it..
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

Actually, GB is a member of the EU.. Are you joking or something or dont you know?
Do you not count it as a member because Tony Blair has been a puppet of Bush?
Lol, hardly, I discount Great Britain, Denmark and Sweeden from the EU because they retain their original currency rejecting the EU banknotes - which is technically a violation of the EU.

Maximus Zeebra said:
Actually, counting the expanded EU, the growth including the growth we got with new member states, the EU far outgrew the US the last 10 years, they even outgrew China..
In real macroeconomic terms, the EU outgrew the US the last quarter after a postive trend that seems to be continuing..
In other words it's nothing more but a false virtual growth - growth by acquisition of other nation states is hardly real growth at all. The EU can not out compete either the US or China, the EU is quite irrelevant as a modern great power.

Maximus Zeebra said:
Now, think about this.. What is easiest?

1 To grow to 40.000 GDP per capita from 27.000 GDP per capita, OR
2 Grow from 37.000 GDP per capita to 50.000 GDP per capita?

Number 1 is the challenge the EU has to keep up with the US, if they do they will end up with a total capita of around 20 trillion.
GDP does not dictate purchase power. Though Europeans have higher incomes - however europeans also pay more for commodities. Chinese citizens have roughly the same amount of purchase power from their small wages to Americans - both of which are far more than Europeans.

Maximus Zeebra said:
Number 2 is the challenge of the US if they want to keep up with the EU if the EU reach the number 1 goal, still the US would only have 15 trillion in total capita then..
The challenge of the US to keep up with the EU if the EU reach the number 1 goal? You're not even making sense here.

Maximus Zeebra said:
If the EU and the US par on GDP per capita, the total economic volume of the EU will be almost twice as big as that of the US, MEANING the US have to keep the GDP twice as high to have the same total output..
Yet, you're still dealing with a non-centralized entity. The EU is not united and as noted formerly, the growth is only virtual from the collection of new nations into the Union - yet as with any nation - national interests are always going to be number 1. The "poorer" Eu nations now are using the "richer" nations to bolster their capital and credit - where as the richer nations are taking quite a hit - ie Germany.
The only way that the EU can even begin to compete with the US or China is if the entire subcontinent is united under one political entity with full military and governmental control.

Maximus Zeebra said:
Hah, humanitarian efforts... The US you are talking about?
Yes, I'm talking about the US and our Humanitarian efforts.

Maximus Zeebra said:
Lots of internation issues go on without the US, and as they exclude themself, the whole world goes on without them.. Kyoto is one mentionable thing. Iraq war is another.. Neglecting the opinions of France and Germany on Iraq, cost the US dear.. They have lost most of the popular support from their allied countries, and are now in unprecedented trouble in Iraq, no help they will get either..
Their army is not really going to help them out it seems, the US pushed themselves into trouble and no one seems to be ready to help them out of it..
Kyoto is a humanitarian issue? BTW, how's that going without US involvement? From the data that's been released seems no one is meeting their quotas and asking to "redraw" the goal posts because they can't be met. Kyoto won't be able to work unless the US is involved - pushing for every country to fall under the guidelines - including China and India.
France and Germany - interesting case about France and Germany in their contracts with the dictator - but what does this have to do with humanitarianism? France hasn't been able to, nor has done squat on it's own. International efforts without US involvement have been completely fruitless. Why? because each time such a scenario arises the European "powers" involved go right back to their colonial mentalities and seek only to see what they can gain from those efforts as opposed to what is the right thing to do.

I don't think we had any allied support in Iraq. And even with the "support" that we did have - How many troops did France send in? Italy? Poland? Irrelevant numbers really - in other words, we didn't get any help from Europeans to begin with. But since when was Iraq about humanitarianism?
I don't see the Europeans taking an initiative with Darfur, hell I didn't see the Europeans taking an initiative with Somalia either. Kuwait perhaps? Hmmm no, how about Cambodia? Again no. Was it the Europeans that brokered the Camp David accords? Ohh no wait, sorry impossible as Camp David is in the US.
Fact is, since the end of WWII the Europeans have been irrelevant as a world power - and as I said, the EU doesn't mean anything unless it can unite itself under one legitimate governing body only then will it even be on par with China or the US.
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

Lol, hardly, I discount Great Britain, Denmark and Sweeden from the EU because they retain their original currency rejecting the EU banknotes - which is technically a violation of the EU.

Yeah, well, the EU is not just the Eurozone countries. Sweden besides is obligated to change to the Euro as soon as they allow themself to fit the conditions. Denmark and GB have a so called opt out which means they can and will have to consider it at a later time..
Denmark will probably change to the Euro, as for the UK I think they will not change for a very long time.

In other words it's nothing more but a false virtual growth - growth by acquisition of other nation states is hardly real growth at all. The EU can not out compete either the US or China, the EU is quite irrelevant as a modern great power.

No, I think you are wrong here, accession of new member states is actually REAL growth. Not only economically, but people and resources as well.
Those member states are doomed to grow at a very fast rate the next 20-50 years, and will end up a place between Spain and Ireland, two fantastic examples of what the EU has done for previously poor member states.

The 4-10% growth of the new member states is atm compensating for the lower growth in western Europe, with Italy as the lowest example of less than 2% growth.

I would consider the accession of eastern Europe REAL and important growth.

GDP does not dictate purchase power. Though Europeans have higher incomes - however europeans also pay more for commodities. Chinese citizens have roughly the same amount of purchase power from their small wages to Americans - both of which are far more than Europeans.

If a European go to America, everything is cheap, if a European go to China, everything is almost free..
If an American go to China, everything is very cheap, if an American go to Europe, everything is expensive.

Just because Europe and Japan has high prices doesnt mean they have less purchasing power. The minimum wage in Europe(except the east) for example is much higher than in the US.

This inequality of prices will encourage Europeans to import a lot of goods, and the same thing that happend to the US, something that will make Europe more of a consumer and deficit society, something that again will help Europeans as prices will fall, and their Euro be very powerful overseas.
Even inside Europe this is happening, with cheap prices just across the borders, more and more Europeans are starting to buy goods in other European countries.

There is a total effect very difficult to understand, but looking at many of the aspects, it seems to be mostly positive, and they will appear clear and strong with time.

The challenge of the US to keep up with the EU if the EU reach the number 1 goal? You're not even making sense here.

The goals of the EU is growth and equality. If the eastern European states catch up with the western European counterparts, the European Union without any further enlargment will have MUCH(about 1/3-1/2) more economic muscle than the US.



Yet, you're still dealing with a non-centralized entity. The EU is not united and as noted formerly, the growth is only virtual from the collection of new nations into the Union - yet as with any nation - national interests are always going to be number 1. The "poorer" Eu nations now are using the "richer" nations to bolster their capital and credit - where as the richer nations are taking quite a hit - ie Germany.
The only way that the EU can even begin to compete with the US or China is if the entire subcontinent is united under one political entity with full military and governmental control.

The whole idea of the European Union is centralization. In not to far future it will probably become a federation or something similar, its well on its way..
Political and military union is ensrhined into the Maastricht Treaty and is well on its way to becoming reality.. But hey, Rome was not built in a day either.

Germany is taking hits, yes, but still growing at 2%, which is not a crisis.. Its just a matter of time until Germany and France loosens up and we experience a true economic boom in the European Union.
I predict that will happen between 2010 and 2020.
There was indeed a crack when the Euro was introduced, as peoples habits changed and everyone were sceptic, but since that, everything has turned upwards, and now the Eurozone outgrew the US the last quarter.

Who knows what it will be even in 5 years, the trust other countries have in the Euro is much stronger than the trust other nations have in the unstable and unreliable dollar.. A good reason that the hydrogen economy will be what will underpin the Euro, and the oil era of the dollar is out.
Even in the oil era you might see this starting, with more and more oil countries accepting Euro, and changing to Euro as foreign holdings.
The Euro is now the second most held and used currency in the world after the dollar, with about 20-30% of the market against 50-60% for the dollar.
Now that is impressive considering the dollar has lived for some 300 years and the Euro less than 10 years.

Yes, I'm talking about the US and our Humanitarian efforts.


Hah, is that suppose to be a joke? You made me lough.. :rofl

What are you pointing at, the war in Iraq or the war on terror?


Kyoto is a humanitarian issue? BTW, how's that going without US involvement? From the data that's been released seems no one is meeting their quotas and asking to "redraw" the goal posts because they can't be met. Kyoto won't be able to work unless the US is involved - pushing for every country to fall under the guidelines - including China and India.
France and Germany - interesting case about France and Germany in their contracts with the dictator - but what does this have to do with humanitarianism? France hasn't been able to, nor has done squat on it's own. International efforts without US involvement have been completely fruitless. Why? because each time such a scenario arises the European "powers" involved go right back to their colonial mentalities and seek only to see what they can gain from those efforts as opposed to what is the right thing to do.

Didnt say kyoto was a humanitarian issue, even if it borders to being one.
The point is kyoto is an example of policies that goes on whatever the US thinks.
You will see more and more policies from Europe coming as they have a few times before, that do not take into consideration what the US thinks. Same goes for Chinese policies, for example in Africa.

I don't think we had any allied support in Iraq. And even with the "support" that we did have - How many troops did France send in? Italy? Poland? Irrelevant numbers really - in other words, we didn't get any help from Europeans to begin with. But since when was Iraq about humanitarianism?

Never said Iraq was about anything humanitarian, actually now it is after the US wrecked and ruined the country. But of course no one support the US in their illegal and useless wars, what do you expect?
Iraq has made things far worse rather than anything positive.

I don't see the Europeans taking an initiative with Darfur, hell I didn't see the Europeans taking an initiative with Somalia either. Kuwait perhaps? Hmmm no, how about Cambodia? Again no. Was it the Europeans that brokered the Camp David accords? Ohh no wait, sorry impossible as Camp David is in the US.
Fact is, since the end of WWII the Europeans have been irrelevant as a world power - and as I said, the EU doesn't mean anything unless it can unite itself under one legitimate governing body only then will it even be on par with China or the US.

Europe is uniting under one unity, and they will continue, their power and influence is growing. What do you expect, small national European states having great influence like the last thousands of years, when they have been wrecked by Germanies wars of Hitler and Keiser Willem?

It ony took 50 years to get back on track, and it will take 50 more before the US will be desperate to catch up with both Europe and China..

Bye bye old Europe, welcome old US, should you need to change your violent and irrelevant policies? The US policies dont belong in the new millenium, European policies do belong..


PS. No one can really see the full picture before it is right before their eyes.
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

If history is to be of any guidance, all great powers come to an end - the exception thus far has been US.
What has been the root of this exception or rather what various factors have contributed?
Will we be replaced? If so how? Implosion or out competed?
Or will we remain a super power?

One reason I do not think we would be removed from power externally is because unlike the traditional powers we do not colonize and we do not invade (save Iraq for now) - we stand the moral high ground.

So will we self-implode? This is problematic as long as we are too self-rightous and think of ourselves as top dog in everything - however we are not a monarchy nor are we a dictatorship - we are a democracy that changes itself every now and again, and overall the population has the means to "overthrow" the ruling party without a complete destruction of the governing power itself. So probably not - even though there is legislation that is troubling.

Your inputs?

I agree with you. However, we won't remain the world's only superpower. China is a rising star, and the EU might possibly become a minor superpower. However, I do believe that America will still remain a powerful force to deal with long into the future and we will remain close to the top in world politics.
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

It ony took 50 years to get back on track, and it will take 50 more before the US will be desperate to catch up with both Europe and China..

Bye bye old Europe, welcome old US, should you need to change your violent and irrelevant policies? The US policies dont belong in the new millenium, European policies do belong..

PS. No one can really see the full picture before it is right before their eyes.

Who are you kidding? The U.S. is still a superpower and won't sputter anytime soon. True, it may not be at it's apogee of power, but nevertheless, it is still a formidable country to deal with. I don't think your precious EU would even be able to fight a costly war in Iraq for an extended period of time...I don't agree with the Iraq Occupation, but at least the American government can pay for it without going bankrupt or causing any harmful effects. Could the EU shoulder a $353B cost without missing a beat? No. Besides, many of the EU members are still in NATO and support the US. The US's violent and irrelevant policies saved your beloved Europe from destruction and indefinite Nazi rule in WW2. In addition, the Muslim population in Europe is growing, and many of the Muslims are not peacefully integrating but are causing problems for everyone by committing crimes such as rape, disruption of the peace (anarchy), murder, and intimidation of native-born Europeans. However, in the spirit of multiculturalism, the overly diplomatic EU has allowed these occurrences to slip under its radar.
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

In my opinion the United States arm forces power has always been Bullies. Sure this is where I was born 59 years ago, but our government (especially) now is trying to be the world police, and the reason why I said that is wherever the bullshit is..we go running to interfere. What about solving our own issues we are having here in America? Such as Racism,Discrimination, people being Homeless,a lack of Education, and finally the economic situations. I may have to close this name out (because the election is over), but I will return as the true me, and I have asked for help from these so-called forum overseers but no help. Now back to the subject. United States is the ONLY country that I know of who is into conflicts with many other countries. Why is that? Is it because we want to control everything? Again, We can't control ourselves, and since we can't control ourselves..how can we control someone else?
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

A military of 1.5 million soldiers is not enough to even contain the violence and protests in its own country if the US tried to show it is a superpower or invade the wrong nation, let alone 6.5 billion people, or 20 million+ other armed forces around the world..

Agreed, but keep in mind that a) the U.S. has ~3M soldiers, b) at least 2B people are children, c) not everyone's going to attack the U.S., and d) there aren't 20 million countries, so there can't be 20 million armed forces. ;)

Oh, and e) When have there ever been protests that morph into civil war in the U.S.? Even the Vietnam War protests were contained relatively well and didn't cause any major riots or revolts. Most Americans criticize with voice, not with weapons. Don't comment when you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

Actually, GB is a member of the EU.. Are you joking or something or dont you know?
Do you not count it as a member because Tony Blair has been a puppet of Bush?

Actually, counting the expanded EU, the growth including the growth we got with new member states, the EU far outgrew the US the last 10 years, they even outgrew China..
In real macroeconomic terms, the EU outgrew the US the last quarter after a postive trend that seems to be continuing..

Now, think about this.. What is easiest?

1 To grow to 40.000 GDP per capita from 27.000 GDP per capita, OR
2 Grow from 37.000 GDP per capita to 50.000 GDP per capita?

Number 1 is the challenge the EU has to keep up with the US, if they do they will end up with a total capita of around 20 trillion.

Number 2 is the challenge of the US if they want to keep up with the EU if the EU reach the number 1 goal, still the US would only have 15 trillion in total capita then..

If the EU and the US par on GDP per capita, the total economic volume of the EU will be almost twice as big as that of the US, MEANING the US have to keep the GDP twice as high to have the same total output..



Hah, humanitarian efforts... The US you are talking about?

Lots of internation issues go on without the US, and as they exclude themself, the whole world goes on without them.. Kyoto is one mentionable thing. Iraq war is another.. Neglecting the opinions of France and Germany on Iraq, cost the US dear.. They have lost most of the popular support from their allied countries, and are now in unprecedented trouble in Iraq, no help they will get either..
Their army is not really going to help them out it seems, the US pushed themself into trouble and no one seems to be ready to help them out of it..

The US is a country, not "them" or "their". It is an it; use proper English for heaven's sake! Yes, the US does have humanitarian efforts and once again, I must remind you the US economy has remained steady since 1945. Can you say the same about Europe? Your reasoning is clearly flawed when discussing the GDPs. The EU and US will not grow at the exact same rates that they are at right now for the next 20 yrs. By the way:

CIA World Factbook
EU - GDP (purchasing power parity): $12.18T
GDP Real Growth Rate: 1.7%

US - GDP (purchasing power parity): $12.31T
GDP Real Growth Rate: 3.2%
Let's take a look at the US vs. the EU. The EU actually has a slightly smaller GDP than the US, by about $0.13T. However, even if you'd like to follow the official exchange rate, then noticing the real growth rate, you can see the US is likely to "overtake" the EU soon anyway, as 3.2% - a fair growth rate - is indicative of a far healthier economy than a 1.7% growth rate is. Who needs economists' dire predictions, anyway?
China - GDP (PPP): $8.88T
GDP Real Growth Rate: 10.2% according to official data
***China cannot possibly sustain this high of a real growth rate for long. Take Japan and South Korea, for instance, or, for that matter, any of the Asian Tigers. Their economies exploded and then leveled off gradually. I predict China will do the same. Beijing may be giving false data to give the impressions things are better than they actually are, and if foreign investors stop investing their capital (which composes ~60% of the Chinese economy) for some reason or other markets open that look even more promising, then China's economy will take a fall. I did a research paper on this, I would know.
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

Yeah, well, the EU is not just the Eurozone countries. Sweden besides is obligated to change to the Euro as soon as they allow themself to fit the conditions. Denmark and GB have a so called opt out which means they can and will have to consider it at a later time..
Denmark will probably change to the Euro, as for the UK I think they will not change for a very long time
GB and denmark both have an indefinete opt out option for the euro, sweeden also is in no hurry or pressure to do so; also let's not forget that both the danish and the british are not goverened by EU trade guidlines as Germany and France are. Yet there the inequality exists for the eastern european nations as if they wish to join the EU they must accept all the requirements or they are unable to join. Again we go back to square 1.


No, I think you are wrong here, accession of new member states is actually REAL growth. Not only economically, but people and resources as well.
Those member states are doomed to grow at a very fast rate the next 20-50 years, and will end up a place between Spain and Ireland, two fantastic examples of what the EU has done for previously poor member states.
Iraq is now under US occupation, does growth and resources in Iraq then contribute to US growth and resources? as I've stated continually, a divided political entity can not co-exist together to over power a united super nation like china or the US. In the end jobs and resources are going to be dictated by the invisible hand pushing towards open market and true unhindered or protected markets - ie US and British markets.

The 4-10% growth of the new member states is atm compensating for the lower growth in western Europe, with Italy as the lowest example of less than 2% growth.
what happens when those nations are industrialized and with saturated job markets? no more growth? you can not count the growth of developing nations into the macro economy.

I would consider the accession of eastern Europe REAL and important growth.
I access it as the only growth in Europe.

If a European go to America, everything is cheap, if a European go to China, everything is almost free..
If an American go to China, everything is very cheap, if an American go to Europe, everything is expensive.

Just because Europe and Japan has high prices doesnt mean they have less purchasing power. The minimum wage in Europe(except the east) for example is much higher than in the US.

This inequality of prices will encourage Europeans to import a lot of goods, and the same thing that happend to the US, something that will make Europe more of a consumer and deficit society, something that again will help Europeans as prices will fall, and their Euro be very powerful overseas.
Even inside Europe this is happening, with cheap prices just across the borders, more and more Europeans are starting to buy goods in other European countries.
Thus a huge trade deficit resulting in no other countries purchasing european goods and european capital flowing out to 3rd world countries that manufacture these goods.
Europeans and americans can not rely on trade deficits to gain capital - it only results in a loss of capital not gain and a concentration of the capital into a select few while the population as a whole shows smaller savings - a very big problem. Because then the question becomes, how do yo then suffice for the capital of those who lost their wages to developing countires? social welfare? not viable.

There is a total effect very difficult to understand, but looking at many of the aspects, it seems to be mostly positive, and they will appear clear and strong with time.
not that difficult

The goals of the EU is growth and equality. If the eastern European states catch up with the western European counterparts, the European Union without any further enlargment will have MUCH(about 1/3-1/2) more economic muscle than the US.
that is if the US economy is stagnant, which it is far from. and again, the EU is alreay unequal, western europeans are paying for the development of eastern europeans - eastern europeans are raising the growth of the sub continent as a whole. There is no such thing as equal wealth - those circumstances dictate only equally poor.

The whole idea of the European Union is centralization. In not to far future it will probably become a federation or something similar, its well on its way..
Political and military union is ensrhined into the Maastricht Treaty and is well on its way to becoming reality.. But hey, Rome was not built in a day either.
Unless it is a united union as the US is, in the end it will still be every nation for themselves. You can not have partial unity. The level of centralization in the EU vs that of the US or China is simply incomparable.

Germany is taking hits, yes, but still growing at 2%, which is not a crisis.. Its just a matter of time until Germany and France loosens up and we experience a true economic boom in the European Union.
I predict that will happen between 2010 and 2020.
There was indeed a crack when the Euro was introduced, as peoples habits changed and everyone were sceptic, but since that, everything has turned upwards, and now the Eurozone outgrew the US the last quarter.
2010 or 2020 and both the US and Chinese economies will have far surpassed what they are today.you already give a perfect example of the every nation for themselves I've exemplified here thus far with Germany and France.

Who knows what it will be even in 5 years, the trust other countries have in the Euro is much stronger than the trust other nations have in the unstable and unreliable dollar.. A good reason that the hydrogen economy will be what will underpin the Euro, and the oil era of the dollar is out.
Even in the oil era you might see this starting, with more and more oil countries accepting Euro, and changing to Euro as foreign holdings.
The Euro is now the second most held and used currency in the world after the dollar, with about 20-30% of the market against 50-60% for the dollar.
one pinnacle of a stable currency asside from a stable econmy is a competent military - which the EU as split nations does not have. Hydrogen or not, the dollar is here to stay as a reliable currency.

Now that is impressive considering the dollar has lived for some 300 years and the Euro less than 10 years.
The dollar was irrelevent until WWI, the euro replaced european tenders which the germans sacrificed the most and the british are still unwilling to accept.
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

Maximus Zeebra said:
Hah, is that suppose to be a joke? You made me lough.. :rofl

What are you pointing at, the war in Iraq or the war on terror?
Somalia, Bosnia, East Temor, Taiwan, Haiti, want more?

Didnt say kyoto was a humanitarian issue, even if it borders to being one.
then you shouldn't have brought it up with humanitarian issues as the premise.

The point is kyoto is an example of policies that goes on whatever the US thinks.
You will see more and more policies from Europe coming as they have a few times before, that do not take into consideration what the US thinks. Same goes for Chinese policies, for example in Africa.
Since the enactment of Kyoto without the participation of the US, asside from the Norwegians which EU nation has met it's quotas?
Sadly europeans are still stuck in their colonial mentality days of being top dog. yet even with the EU nations are still competeing with each other economically. It's the only way economies grow - competition. otherwise it's stagnant. you're only reliance thuse far has been the innate growth of e. europe upon entering the EU, the old industrialized nations are pretty much stagnant with job demand higher than job growth. that's not a pretty picture.

Never said Iraq was about anything humanitarian, actually now it is after the US wrecked and ruined the country. But of course no one support the US in their illegal and useless wars, what do you expect?
Iraq has made things far worse rather than anything positive.
Yes we wrecked it but we wrecked it because of an arrogant and incompetent leader and it's going to be a mess to get out of - but that's our problem. How was iraq before we wrecked it? sure no suicide bombings but then we weren't selling saddam arms as the french and russians were doing after the first gulf war.
Also, why did the europeans support the UN clauses for war into Iraq? you're in the same boat we are, however instead of throwing our hands in the air we're trying to set the wrong right. Rome wasn't built in a day. The "european" powers have all left, or fled.

Europe is uniting under one unity, and they will continue, their power and influence is growing. What do you expect, small national European states having great influence like the last thousands of years, when they have been wrecked by Germanies wars of Hitler and Keiser Willem?
Germany wasn't united until 1871 before that Napolean laid waste to the lands so on and so forth, so it's unwise to blame your union member state for thousands of years of turmoil. 1871 till 1945 is just a little over 70 years to which in both "world" war cases we the underdog US an irrelevent power until the 2nd world war saved europe - no arguing that. The european economy might be "united" but it's still very divided politically and culturally. case in point? Tell me, what do the french really think about the germans today? How's immigrations from Eastern europe?

It ony took 50 years to get back on track, and it will take 50 more before the US will be desperate to catch up with both Europe and China..
How would those 50 years have been without the marshall plan? Without US protection against a very real Soviet threat? Sure the soviets would've just stopped at berlin right?
you're 50 years of getting on track would not have been possible without US (pun intended).
As for China, how would China have been without Nixon there in 1972?

Bye bye old Europe, welcome old US, should you need to change your violent and irrelevant policies? The US policies dont belong in the new millenium, European policies do belong..
Just what are these new european policies? From what you've mentioned thus far with the powerful euro against the dollar and yuan as well as a seemingly arrogant optomism of a divided economy against 2 powerful large and resourceful united nations seems the same old europe to me.

S. No one can really see the full picture before it is right before their eyes.
If history serves as any foundation, division leads to irrelevancy - pre-Bismark Germany .
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

The US is a country, not "them" or "their". It is an it; use proper English for heaven's sake! Yes, the US does have humanitarian efforts and once again, I must remind you the US economy has remained steady since 1945. Can you say the same about Europe? Your reasoning is clearly flawed when discussing the GDPs. The EU and US will not grow at the exact same rates that they are at right now for the next 20 yrs. By the way:

CIA World Factbook
EU - GDP (purchasing power parity): $12.18T
GDP Real Growth Rate: 1.7%

US - GDP (purchasing power parity): $12.31T
GDP Real Growth Rate: 3.2%
Let's take a look at the US vs. the EU. The EU actually has a slightly smaller GDP than the US, by about $0.13T. However, even if you'd like to follow the official exchange rate, then noticing the real growth rate, you can see the US is likely to "overtake" the EU soon anyway, as 3.2% - a fair growth rate - is indicative of a far healthier economy than a 1.7% growth rate is. Who needs economists' dire predictions, anyway?
China - GDP (PPP): $8.88T
GDP Real Growth Rate: 10.2% according to official data
***China cannot possibly sustain this high of a real growth rate for long. Take Japan and South Korea, for instance, or, for that matter, any of the Asian Tigers. Their economies exploded and then leveled off gradually. I predict China will do the same. Beijing may be giving false data to give the impressions things are better than they actually are, and if foreign investors stop investing their capital (which composes ~60% of the Chinese economy) for some reason or other markets open that look even more promising, then China's economy will take a fall. I did a research paper on this, I would know.
I agree with just about everything but the China tid bit.
China is actually reporting a lower growth rate than it actually has. The official reports are around 8% where as actual growth is around 10%. As for growth wise, it will slow later rather than sooner and it will not come to a dime top stop as the asian tigers or Japan and the reason for that is because of non-protectionism by Beijing - contrary to the tigers and japan. Beijing runs a fairly open and free market system that is planned to grow in a very technocratic fashion also China has the ability as does the US to be reliant only on it's own economy rather than the trade surplus with other nations as was with Japan and the tigers. Hence China will be a different beast all together. The most beneficial and relevent international economic relationship will be of that between the US and China. Everyone else will pretty much be second to this - europe will be loud but would have to fall in line with this relationship or face irrelevancy. I did not write a paper in this, but my fiance' got a degree in it.
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

The US will most certainly hold less power in the world compared to other other nations.

We already can't instill the leaders we wish to in certain areas of the world like we used to. Latin America is the most blatant example, but the Middle East is certainly following suit. America has set up power centers around the world in the form of nations that are loyal to us, most notably countries like Saudi Arabia/Jordan/Egypt to keep oil flowing, and Japan/South Korea/Thailand to contain Chinese and North Koreas influence. However, as the US has isolated many of the countries, especially in the Middle East, by invading Iraq it remains to be seen whether these nations will remain "loyal" to us.

As more and more 3rd World Countries, like China, India, and Latin American Nations rise up out of poverty it is only natural power will be more evenly distributed around the world.

Hopefully, we Americans can force our government to drop its policy of trying to keep other peoples down, like a bully dunking all the little kids heads under water. Eventually, there's too many little kids for one fatass to handle.

When economic power is evenly distributed, perhaps we'll have peace and be able to embrace all the peoples of the Earth and move forward as one people.



....well...it was a good idea.....
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

I agree with just about everything but the China tid bit.
China is actually reporting a lower growth rate than it actually has. The official reports are around 8% where as actual growth is around 10%. As for growth wise, it will slow later rather than sooner and it will not come to a dime top stop as the asian tigers or Japan and the reason for that is because of non-protectionism by Beijing - contrary to the tigers and japan. Beijing runs a fairly open and free market system that is planned to grow in a very technocratic fashion also China has the ability as does the US to be reliant only on it's own economy rather than the trade surplus with other nations as was with Japan and the tigers. Hence China will be a different beast all together. The most beneficial and relevent international economic relationship will be of that between the US and China. Everyone else will pretty much be second to this - europe will be loud but would have to fall in line with this relationship or face irrelevancy. I did not write a paper in this, but my fiance' got a degree in it.

Yes, you are right in this, jfuh. However, I would like to add that the US and China already have a beneficial relationship. If we form an economic and military partnership, it would be the most powerful alliance on Earth. We could help the Chinese government to be more benevolent towards its own people (i.e. stopping the executions, etc.) and we would continue to trade profitable and profoundly. In addition, we could use our joint military force to protect one another. In sum, a close to perfect symbiotic relationship.
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

The United States government has started more mess in other countries then Castro have done in Cuba. World Power? This is the only country where the CIA and the FBI is involved in the international drug trade, and yet these two agencies is support to be a protective organization. To me World Power is having a President who is a leader, and not a follower or money greedy. Bush don't give a damn about the cost of the Iraq war,due to the fact that its our (Citizens) money who is keeping the Iraq war going,and we are the only ones who can impeach or recall a government official if they are not servingthe country. I have never heard about any of Bush's people going to the Iraq war
to fight. The ONLY reason why we are considered as the world's super power
is because we go where we are not invited, and take conflicts over at the tax payers expense. What we need to do is stop talking about what's happening in someone's front yard on the other side of the world. We are so busy looking at other countries until we can't see the dookie pile on our own front lawns. Remember there is a big differences between a super pwoer Bullie then a person that has the power to get things done.
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

I agree with you. However, we won't remain the world's only superpower. China is a rising star, and the EU might possibly become a minor superpower. However, I do believe that America will still remain a powerful force to deal with long into the future and we will remain close to the top in world politics.

The EU will stay in between China and the US, and will side with the one it sees fit in every case..
The strongest ally will always be the US, Europe have very strong ties with the US.. But in the new world of the EU, China and other powers, the US MUST cooperate with Europe rather than try to dominate or they will not get the support.

The US and EU together will dominate China for centuries, alone none of them will stand much chance and will be pretty irrelevant.

So the REAL superpower will be China, and then you will probably see a very strong US/EU allied superpower that will dominate that superpower.. If any of these two choose to go alone, there will guaranteed be some kind of crisis with China.
 
Re: Will the US remain a world power, if so how, if now why not?

Who are you kidding? The U.S. is still a superpower and won't sputter anytime soon. True, it may not be at it's apogee of power, but nevertheless, it is still a formidable country to deal with. I don't think your precious EU would even be able to fight a costly war in Iraq for an extended period of time...I don't agree with the Iraq Occupation, but at least the American government can pay for it without going bankrupt or causing any harmful effects. Could the EU shoulder a $353B cost without missing a beat? No. Besides, many of the EU members are still in NATO and support the US. The US's violent and irrelevant policies saved your beloved Europe from destruction and indefinite Nazi rule in WW2. In addition, the Muslim population in Europe is growing, and many of the Muslims are not peacefully integrating but are causing problems for everyone by committing crimes such as rape, disruption of the peace (anarchy), murder, and intimidation of native-born Europeans. However, in the spirit of multiculturalism, the overly diplomatic EU has allowed these occurrences to slip under its radar.

Of course the US is relevant, I didnt say that, the US is a great power, and both the US and the EU depend on each other, and will even more in the future.

About fighting a costly war in Iraq, my exact point is that Europe would never do that, as there was no reason, the whole war was based on lies and deception and only caused greater loss of American power.
The other point was that Iraq was one thing I was pointing to with irrelevant and violent US plicies that HAVE to change unless the US dont want to loose all their power and become irrelevant. They will become irrelevant if they continue like thise, like a store or shop would become hated and the people choose to demonstrate by not goinf there anymore.

Ohh, the US paying for the war, 400 billion dollars without problems?? What about all your social problems, your healthcare, povery, especially the child poverty that remains the highest in the western world?
The EU could shoulder it if they HAD to, but why choose to?
All the EU countries support the US, but that doesnt mean they support all their policies.
I didnt say the world war stuff was irrelevant, I talked about the current policies.

You being from the US(?) should not talk about problems with rape and violence in Europe, when such crimes are much more frequent in your own country. I do however agree that the muslim population more than any other minority in Europe IS causing trouble..

I would estimate that around 40-50% of the muslim population in Europe is unemployed, which probably in turn is the cause of about 1-2% of the total unemployment numbers in Europe, while the average white European or African Europan unemployment rate is far lower than for the muslims.
 
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