Is it fair to the child?

Kandahar · Dec 20, 2006

Stinger said:
All things being equal............you disagree with that statement.

Yes, I don't think it matters. But that's my opinion, and I'm not the one self-righteously condemning others. You aren't going to shift the burden of proof on to me. Back up your claims with evidence or shut up.

Stinger said:
Did you read the part when she mentioned the music kids listen to today and how much is filled with anger about such things? That you dismiss it out of hand is a sign of your desperation.

:rofl

You're really going to try to use the MUSIC that kids listen to as evidence of the superiority of one family arrangement over all others? Do kids from two-parent families ever listen to Eminem?

Get a clue.

Stinger said:
Which implicitly implies that two parents of the same sex is superior. Which is it?

It implies no such thing. Stop being intentionally ignorant.

Stinger said:
I gave the first hand account and the cite. YOUR TURN.

First hand account = worthless.
The study you cited relies on many faulty assumptions, which I explained above and which you didn't refute.

Stinger said:
No need to, you asked if there were any studies showing that fathers were important I cite them. They exist.

No, that study shows that kids often resemble their father, not that having a father figure in their life is important.

Stinger said:
More

Charles A. Smith
Extension Specialist
Human Development
Cooperative Extension Service
Kansas State University

What the Research Shows

Research on father-child involvement demonstrates that [6]:

(1) Fathers are significant for children;

(2) Fathers are sensitive to children;

(3) Fathers play with children differently than mothers do.

NNCC Father's Care

Those are all subjective, qualitative statements. Let's see the methodology/numbers, please.

Stinger said:
Again your compassion is underwhelming. "Get over it bitch, your mothers feelings were more important than you having a Daddy."

You already said this, and I already told you I don't give a ****.

jallman · Dec 20, 2006

Kandahar said:
Yes, I don't think it matters. But that's my opinion, and I'm not the one self-righteously condemning others. You aren't going to shift the burden of proof on to me. Back up your claims with evidence or shut up.

:rofl

You're really going to try to use the MUSIC that kids listen to as evidence of the superiority of one family arrangement over all others? Do kids from two-parent families ever listen to Eminem?

Get a clue.

It implies no such thing. Stop being intentionally ignorant.

First hand account = worthless.
The study you cited relies on many faulty assumptions, which I explained above and which you didn't refute.

No, that study shows that kids often resemble their father, not that having a father figure in their life is important.

Those are all subjective, qualitative statements. Let's see the methodology/numbers, please.

You already said this, and I already told you I don't give a ****.

Looks like ole stinger just got stung! :rofl

Stinger · Dec 20, 2006

disneydude said:
Thank you.....This post is nothing more than another of Stinger's self-righteous diatribes unsupported by any data.

The claim was that there are no studies showing that have Fathers and unique and important roles in the upbringing of children, that was disproven, there a lots and lots and lots of them. That you need studies to convenence you is absurd enough, but they were provided.

The opinion piece that he points us to is nothing more than one woman's story and yet he cites it as proof and implies that it speaks for all individuals in that situation.

Are you baselessly calling her a liar? You don't believe children raised without Daddies miss something, are denied an important relationship? The studies prove you wrong.

This woman's complaint is nothing more than any other person complaining about their situation in life (i.e., why was I born poor, why was I born short, why was I born with......).

It's a statement of what it is like to grow up being purposely denied a Father. Your comparisons are absurd.

Like I said before, I have little if any sympathy for a woman who was born into a loving home with a mother who struggled and sacrificed to provide the best life for her she could.

Who would not have had such a struggle nor had to have sacrificed had she not denied her child a father.

I call that courageous and admirable. Stinger calls it selfish.

Purposely denying a child a father is courageous and admirable................what folly.

At the same time....Stinger argues that anytime a single person or same sex couple choose to have children they are just selfish.....

They are denying a person a mother or a father for the singular reason that they believe their needs are more important. What do you call that?

while the same decision made by a heterosexual couple is not.

By default a heterosexual couples does not deny a mother or a father to the child.

Stinger.... the people who are truly selfish are people like you who believe that the only people who are entitled to families are people who meet only your limited idea of what a family is......that is selfish.

Denying a child a mother so that you can be happy is not selfish?

yet again...another example of people who condemn their own faults in others.

Once again a poster whose position is so weak they have to engage in personal attacks.

And you statement makes absolutely no sense at all.

disneydude · Dec 20, 2006

Stinger said:
Once again a poster whose position is so weak they have to engage in personal attacks.

Oh...I see, when a right-winger makes a baseless claim that a loving hard working mother is selfish for wanting to have a child.....that is opinion....or as you would call it fact.

When I say that you are selfish for attempting to impose your narrow-minded view of what constitutes a family on everyone....that is a personal attack.

Sounds like you can dish it out but can't take it.

Skip · Dec 20, 2006

That you need studies to convenence you is absurd enough

Oh, I'd bet you'd think it would be. Don't worry about the proof just believe me, you absurd person!

Stinger, anyways, direct question for you:

Let's say a woman is impregnated by a man. This man leaves her soon after, for whatever reason. Would you support this woman getting an early abortion? Or would you say that the child should just be glad to be here?

disneydude · Dec 20, 2006

excellent question Skip!

jallman · Dec 20, 2006

disneydude said:
excellent question Skip!

It was an excellent question. However, I wouldn't expect a straight answer. What I do expect is a dismissive response or no response at all.

Felicity · Dec 20, 2006

Technical Report: Coparent or Second-Parent Adoption by Same-Sex Parents -- Perrin and Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health 109 (2): 341 -- Pediatrics

This doesn’t sound ideal.....
“Most individuals who have a lesbian and/or gay parent were conceived in the context of a heterosexual relationship. When a parent (or both parents) in a heterosexual couple "comes out" as lesbian or gay, some parents divorce and others continue to live as a couple.”

nor does this....
“These families closely resemble stepfamilies formed after heterosexual couples divorce, and many of their parenting concerns and adjustments are similar.”

and later in the research:

"Because most children whose parents are gay or lesbian have experienced the divorce of their biologic parents, their subsequent psychologic development has to be understood in that context. Whether they are subsequently raised by 1 or 2 separated parents and whether a stepparent has joined either of the biologic parents are important factors for children but are rarely addressed in research assessing outcomes for children who have a lesbian or gay parent.

The considerable research literature that has accumulated addressing this issue has generally revealed that children of divorced lesbian mothers grow up in ways that are very similar to children of divorced heterosexual mothers.

Shall I post a bunch of stuff about the devastating effects divorce has on the psychological development of children?

What is IDEAL about this? My family isn't "ideal"--we all have problems...WHY is there such vehemence to defend poor choices--we all make em...Geez.:roll:

jallman · Dec 20, 2006

Felicity said:
Technical Report: Coparent or Second-Parent Adoption by Same-Sex Parents -- Perrin and Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health 109 (2): 341 -- Pediatrics

This doesn’t sound ideal.....
“Most individuals who have a lesbian and/or gay parent were conceived in the context of a heterosexual relationship. When a parent (or both parents) in a heterosexual couple "comes out" as lesbian or gay, some parents divorce and others continue to live as a couple.”

nor does this....
“These families closely resemble stepfamilies formed after heterosexual couples divorce, and many of their parenting concerns and adjustments are similar.”

and later in the research:

"Because most children whose parents are gay or lesbian have experienced the divorce of their biologic parents, their subsequent psychologic development has to be understood in that context. Whether they are subsequently raised by 1 or 2 separated parents and whether a stepparent has joined either of the biologic parents are important factors for children but are rarely addressed in research assessing outcomes for children who have a lesbian or gay parent.

The considerable research literature that has accumulated addressing this issue has generally revealed that children of divorced lesbian mothers grow up in ways that are very similar to children of divorced heterosexual mothers.

Shall I post a bunch of stuff about the devastating effects divorce has on the psychological development of children?

What is IDEAL about this? My family isn't "ideal"--we all have problems...WHY is there such vehemence to defend poor choices--we all make em...Geez.:roll:

In all that I see not one negative assertion. I see that the context changes, but I don't see anything remotely saying "bad gay parent...bad, bad".

1069 · Dec 20, 2006

What is IDEAL about this? My family isn't "ideal"--we all have problems...WHY is there such vehemence to defend poor choices--we all make em...Geez.

Why the vehemence to attack others' choices as "poor", if in fact "we all make them"?
I believe somebody around here even admitted to smoking around her children and drinking during pregnancy; choices that all right-minded people, liberal and conservative, can agree are not merely "poor" but well-nigh unjustifiable.
And yet this same somebody starts thread after thread attacking not only women who terminate unwanted pregnancies, but also women with fertility issues who conceive via IVF.
I wonder if some people might be better parents if they turned their avid culpatory attentions inward, rather than wasting their lives excoriating others who do not share their values or ideals (which in your case would be about 95% of the population of the US, Felicity; you oppose contraception, for christ's sake).

Kandahar · Dec 20, 2006

Felicity said:
Shall I post a bunch of stuff about the devastating effects divorce has on the psychological development of children?

Yes. And only things that can't be explained by genetics, please. Don't tell me that children of angry parents (who are more likely to get divorced) are likely to be angry themselves (and more likely to get divorced), because all that says is that there is a correlation. Some actual evidence of a causal relationship between divorce and harmful effects on the child, please.

Felicity · Dec 20, 2006

jallman said:
In all that I see not one negative assertion. I see that the context changes, but I don't see anything remotely saying "bad gay parent...bad, bad".

And that is not what is being said in this thread either. What is being said is, if the situation can be avoided, is it fair to knowingly subject a child to less than ideal circumstances? The article by a woman in that circumstance seems to indicate that it isn't "fair."

jallman · Dec 20, 2006

Felicity said:
And that is not what is being said in this thread either. What is being said is, if the situation can be avoided, is it fair to knowingly subject a child to less than ideal circumstances? The article by a woman in that circumstance seems to indicate that it isn't "fair."

I am not saying that was your intention, but when you look at the opening post and then add the forced relationship between this woman and gay marriage (not even gay parenting), you can see that stinger's intention and agenda was quite clear. I hope I didn't come off as being combative with you, however. :2wave:

Felicity · Dec 20, 2006

1069 said:
I believe somebody around here even admitted to smoking around her children and drinking during pregnancy; choices that all right-minded people, liberal and conservative, can agree are not merely "poor" but well-nigh unjustifiable.

In context darlin--remember the context....your wild characterization is like me claiming you want men to take horemones and breastfeed their babies because you mentioned it once. There is nothing wrong a glass of champagne at New Year when one is in the third trimester. Give me a break:roll: You just simply can't argue on the merits of the debate without your twisting of facts and tangential sputterings.

And yet this same somebody starts thread after thread attacking not only women who terminate unwanted pregnancies, but also women with fertility issues who conceive via IVF.

Again--aren't you the woman who abhors maternal education, child-care, health care, housing...blah, blah, blah...as you pointed out on the Solutions thread? I do not attack, I debate--you twist and attack based on false premises. Your posts speak for themselves.

I wonder if some people might be better parents if they turned their avid culpatory attentions inward, rather than wasting their lives excoriating others who do not share their values or ideals (which in your case would be about 95% of the population of the US, Felicity; you oppose contraception, for christ's sake).

I am so flattered you sit around pondering my personal foibles. If it didn't speak volumes about your own pitiful plight (that which is to be so enamoured of finding personal fault with some stranger on a forum on the net that it borders on obsession), it might be touching.

1069 · Dec 20, 2006

I am so flattered you sit around pondering my personal foibles. If it didn't speak volumes about your own pitiful plight (that which is to be so enamoured of finding personal fault with some stranger on a forum on the net that it borders on obsession), it might be touching.

Yeah, according to you, NgDawg has a "crush" on you, and I'm "obsessed" with you.
No, friend; I figure there's a reason you haven't posted your picture. :roll:

Felicity · Dec 20, 2006

jallman said:
I am not saying that was your intention, but when you look at the opening post and then add the forced relationship between this woman and gay marriage (not even gay parenting), you can see that stinger's intention and agenda was quite clear. I hope I didn't come off as being combative with you, however. :2wave:

I guess I didn't assume stinger intended anything other than what was said. I'm not a mind reader and neither is anyone else--though some seem to think they have special insight into the thoughts and intentions of others (not you). I didn't take it as combative. I'll re-check out the OP to see if I slid over some obvious agenda...but...

Felicity · Dec 20, 2006

1069 said:
Yeah, according to you, NgDawg has a "crush" on you, and I'm "obsessed" with you.
No, friend; I figure there's a reason you haven't posted your picture. :roll:

See--it seems you keep a file on my comments...even silly offhanded ones!:mrgreen:

BTW, dear, for the feminist with anti-patriarchal prujudice that you spout, why on earth would my "looks" have anything at all to do with the merit of who I am?

I find it also telling--you LOOKED for a picture of me. Would you like me to PM you a link to our Christmas photos? Sorry hon--I'm a babe for 5 kids and 36 years!

1069 · Dec 20, 2006

Felicity said:
See--it seems you keep a file on my comments...even silly offhanded ones!:mrgreen:

BTW, dear, for the feminist with anti-patriarchal prujudice that you spout, why on earth would my "looks" have anything at all to do with the merit of who I am?

I find it also telling--you LOOKED for a picture of me. Would you like me to PM you a link to our Christmas photos? Sorry hon--I'm a babe for 5 kids and 36 years!

Feminism be damned; after watching you go after NgD with those sick IVF threads, there's nothing about you that isn't fair game, as far as I'm concerned.

Willow · Dec 21, 2006

Yes this girl has had some poor parenting. Apparently she grew up thinking that life is fair. Life isn't fair and teaching your children it is is a mistake.
The biggest error with this poll is that it doesn't address this girl's issue, the poll should be
"Should sperm donors be legally required to divulge their name to any offspring?..Yes/No"
That's all that her little rant has to do with, anything else she has to say is irrelevant to her original grievance. Her problem is solely based on that one question, it's not based on divorce or gay parents or rich single starlet or any other thing you dragged in there. It's very disingenuous to try to bring up any other form of parenting in regard to her story, Stinger.

BodiSatva · Dec 21, 2006

One of my daughters is named Willow...
:lol:

CaptainCourtesy · Dec 21, 2006

A lot of posts since I was on this thread. Let's start here:

Stinger said:
Here just to prove the point that I can post such studies:

"Ohio State University Extension Fact Sheet
Family and Consumer Sciences
Campbell Hall 1787 Neil Avenue, Columbus, Ohio 43210
Father's Role
HYG-5212-96

The father's role in families is an important one, and contributes both to the growth and development of the father and his children. Fathers have the opportunity to rethink their own father-child relationship, put that into a mature perspective, and parent their own children in a way that contributes positively to the children's growth and development. A father's influence continues across the generations.

For years researchers have concentrated on the mother's role in the family. However, within the last ten years, an increasing amount of research has been conducted on the father's role. As a result of this research, investigators have concluded that the father's role is an important one that has a profound influence on the social, emotional, and intellectual development of the children. Thus, the mother and father interact with the child in unique and different ways. These roles are not equal or interchangeable, but each make their own contribution to child development. Caring for and being involved with the family is important for both mother and father."

Father's Role, HYG-5212-96

Saw this a couple of weeks ago when I was doing research to support the importance of fathers in another thread. I rejected using it as it is nothing more than a fact sheet that you could find anywhere. I offers no research other than a couple of references and seems to be more editorial in nature. I've written fact sheets like this on a variety of subjects and though useful for information, I wouldn't cite them for research.

CaptainCourtesy · Dec 21, 2006

Stinger said:
Which implicitly implies that two parents of the same sex is superior. Which is it?

It is this point that you continue to adhere to. I have posted much research in this topic in a number of other threads. Most are primary sources. Everything I've seen indicates the following: All things being equal children in families with hetero. parents and children in families with homo. parents do equally well in all areas. If you'd like, I'll happily post many of the resources, but it seems redundant since I've posted them on two other threads. Here's a good place to start: Children of Lesbian and Gay Parents

More

Charles A. Smith
Extension Specialist
Human Development
Cooperative Extension Service
Kansas State University

What the Research Shows

Research on father-child involvement demonstrates that [6]:

(1) Fathers are significant for children;

(2) Fathers are sensitive to children;

(3) Fathers play with children differently than mothers do.

NNCC Father's Care

Much better than your other "research", Stinger. I have also posted a lot of research on the importance of the father in a family. Here are two:
http://www.nichd.nih.gov/publications/pubs/upload/ti_9.pdf
http://media.wiley.com/product_data/excerpt/14/04712316/0471231614.pdf

The latter one is a long read, but has massive amounts of primary source research, cited.

However, there is a caviet around most of the research on this issue. It tends to focus on families where the father is not involved rather than families where the father doesn't exist. This is a huge distinction that is being overlooked. The former encompases families where there is divorce or death. The later deals with families wher there was no father to begin with. The research on Gay and Lesbian parents, showing that there is no difference in children from those of straight parents, can be used to show that families where a father doesn't exist, where there is involvement, also produces children who do as well as those with involved mother-father parents.

The key concept here, folks, is invovlement.

Urethra Franklin · Dec 21, 2006

Lachean said:
Im trying to understand your purpose in making this thread.

Hi Lachean, how ya doin'?

One can only assume his purpose is sheer homophobia and anti-single parenthood, hence the weird weighting of the questions. Oh yawn, it's family values time. Get that apple pie in the oven mom!

All kids have issues, even those with a nice mommy and daddy who took them to church every Sunday (in fact, especially them). We all have to grow up and work these things out for ourselves. No one has a 100% easy life: that's just nort part of the deal.
He ignores the fact that when two gay people or a single person consciously sets out out to have a child, it's a conscious, planned decision (unlike many hetero couples who often just get caught out after afew beers, or think it's the "thing to do" now they're married). Hence that child is truly wanted and cherished which usually results in the child being truly loved, which is surely the most important thing of all.

Of course he thinks the child will suffer because of the judgements of others. Because HE would judge, he assumes the rest of the world shares his low moral standards.

CaptainCourtesy · Dec 21, 2006

Felicity said:
Technical Report: Coparent or Second-Parent Adoption by Same-Sex Parents -- Perrin and Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health 109 (2): 341 -- Pediatrics

This doesn’t sound ideal.....
“Most individuals who have a lesbian and/or gay parent were conceived in the context of a heterosexual relationship. When a parent (or both parents) in a heterosexual couple "comes out" as lesbian or gay, some parents divorce and others continue to live as a couple.”

nor does this....
“These families closely resemble stepfamilies formed after heterosexual couples divorce, and many of their parenting concerns and adjustments are similar.”

and later in the research:

"Because most children whose parents are gay or lesbian have experienced the divorce of their biologic parents, their subsequent psychologic development has to be understood in that context. Whether they are subsequently raised by 1 or 2 separated parents and whether a stepparent has joined either of the biologic parents are important factors for children but are rarely addressed in research assessing outcomes for children who have a lesbian or gay parent.

The considerable research literature that has accumulated addressing this issue has generally revealed that children of divorced lesbian mothers grow up in ways that are very similar to children of divorced heterosexual mothers.

Shall I post a bunch of stuff about the devastating effects divorce has on the psychological development of children?

What is IDEAL about this? My family isn't "ideal"--we all have problems...WHY is there such vehemence to defend poor choices--we all make em...Geez.:roll:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, Felicity. Are you saying that divorce, creating alternate families (single-parent, blended, gay, etc...) is psychologically damaging to children? If this is it, than I would agree, in general terms: divorce, certainly can cause an assortment of issues for children. If, your post narrows to just address homosexual parents, then perhaps the Abstract from the study you posted should be quoted:

A growing body of scientific literature demonstrates that children who grow up with 1 or 2 gay and/or lesbian parents fare as well in emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as do children whose parents are heterosexual. Children’s optimal development seems to be influenced more by the nature of the relationships and interactions within the family unit than by the particular structural form it takes.

If this is not it, but my former guess instead, I don't think I need to cite research on this, as I think the effects of divorce on children is fairly well-known. Though if there are some disputes, I can certainly find some.

CaptainCourtesy · Dec 21, 2006

Moderator's Warning:

Just a friendly reminder to direct your comments towards the topic and not make personal comments towards the poster. There are other areas of the board for those.

Is it fair to the child?

Is it fair for the child?

No, everyone deserves a mother and a father and the best chance at it

Yes, the adults desires outweight the child's needs they should be glad to just be here

Kandahar

Enemy Combatant

jallman

Stinger

disneydude

Skip

Well-known member

disneydude

jallman

Felicity

jallman

1069

Kandahar

Enemy Combatant

Felicity

jallman

Felicity

1069

Felicity

Felicity

1069

Willow

Active member

BodiSatva

The Bodhisattva

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

Urethra Franklin

Folle

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo