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Is it Un-American to work under the table?

Is it Un-American to work under the table?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 42.9%

  • No

    Votes: 12 57.1%
  • Total voters
    21
ptsdkid said:
I believe its un-American to have hard working people taxed by the government at such an outlandish rate. So any time you can seek tax relief by moonlighting under the table--should be truly an all-American experience and natural right.
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your message is pure Hog Wash
 
ptsdkid said:
***The point here is that most people do pay taxes by having their income taxed twice. So they are paying their taxes, and paying them at an outrageous rate. So I don't see working under the table to be breaking the law at all.

Simply not agreeing with a law, does not suddenly make it Legal to break it. This is not up for debate, and the laws of the united states are not something we get to pick and choose on an individual basis. The "All American" thing to do in this case, is to work toward changing the laws....not breaking them.


What people do for and as a moonlighting endeavor--should be left up to them to do at their own discretion. Someone else here said that many people feel strapped because of their paltry tax-laden income, so they need to find and employ themselves again where the tax monster doesn't become a factor.

And they are breaking the Laws of the country they live in, this in not a benefit to the country, and thus they work against it....they are by your own definition....un-American.

Somehow by working under the table keeps me from assimilating? LOL! You do have a weird sense of humor, but make me laugh...you did.

It is understood this thread is an attempt to justify yourself, but the simple fact remains. You have decided to bypass certain laws of the country you live in...Likely this has very little effect on the ability of government to function, but at the least....admit it is illegal and counter to support of your government.

So I'm un-American for wishing people luck in finding tax-exempt moonlighting employment. And I'm a thief because what...because I wish to see people make enough money to help offset a tax-reduced paycheck? And I'm a liar, for what...for suggesting that people enjoy living the American dream?

You are Un-American by your own admission, by breaking the law.You are stealing , in that by breaking this law you avoid paying into the system which supports you....literally in this case. You are decietful to Only yourself in this, as the rest of us generally see you for what you are.

You know, coffee...it seems to me that those taking the poll have outnumbered you 4 to 1 in their agreement with me on this working under the table issue. Perhaps it is you that is un-American, a thief in the night, and a habitual liar.
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Your own admissions point to the falicy of the final statement here....and getting upset with another member simply because they refuse to add justification to your hypocritical position, is rather sad. You claim others are Un-American Kid, while blatantly disregarding American Law for personal gain. Added to this , you live off the very system that you refuse to pay into. So, here I sit working my *** off to help you buy a new car and twinkies for your supper....while you rub it in my face, and celebrate your disdain for America.
 
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I see that my original question has been reduced to the degeneration stage of basic name calling by some of Debate Politics' more formidable law abiding (happy tax paying) members. I'm especially thrilled to see that Tecoya has taken on the mantel as D.P's latest star for the righteous among us.

We mere mortals are all sinners, and as much as I would love to join you non-sinning (deeply righteous) tax payers by rejecting any further offers to work under the table, I cannot quite live up to your elitist standards at the present time.

They made a law back in 1973 (Roe v Wade) that clearly states that any woman can murder their unborn. Where I consider the act of murder to be a sin, I could never in my PTSD confused state of mind accept and expect women to adhere to that government mandated law. I see the government robbing people of their hard-earned money by taxing them twice as being nearly as great a crime as murder. So do any of you 10 people that voted it un-American to work under the table--have any qualms about accepting murder on demand? Doesn't Robin Hood have a say in this matter as well?
 
ptsdkid said:
I see that my original question has been reduced to the degeneration stage of basic name calling by some of Debate Politics' more formidable law abiding (happy tax paying) members. I'm especially thrilled to see that Tecoya has taken on the mantel as D.P's latest star for the righteous among us.

We mere mortals are all sinners, and as much as I would love to join you non-sinning (deeply righteous) tax payers by rejecting any further offers to work under the table, I cannot quite live up to your elitist standards at the present time.

They made a law back in 1973 (Roe v Wade) that clearly states that any woman can murder their unborn. Where I consider the act of murder to be a sin, I could never in my PTSD confused state of mind accept and expect women to adhere to that government mandated law. I see the government robbing people of their hard-earned money by taxing them twice as being nearly as great a crime as murder. So do any of you 10 people that voted it un-American to work under the table--have any qualms about accepting murder on demand? Doesn't Robin Hood have a say in this matter as well?
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OK....even you Kid, cannot expect this to be a valid anology to the topic. In Roe v Wade there is no clause telling you to get an abortion, whereas the law clearly states what taxes must be paid. The transparent attempt to sideline your OWN THREAD by changing the topic has become standard practice, and expected in a way.
YOU asked for opinions on your own activities, and have been told you are breaking the law, and to an extent that you are a Hypocrite. Rather than try to deny these things, you move on to something else in an attempt to salvage what you can from a completely stomped Ego....why do you bother....seriously.

You are without a doubt....the worst debator on this entire site, and generally are simply used for entertainment by most here. Unfortunately....thats starting to wear a bit thin as well.....why not just take another month off, and call it a Christmas Present to the Masses.
 
Why is everyone always crying about taxes? Why do you think we live in the manner that we do? What do you think sets us apart from the damaged, wrecked, and neglected third world?

You want roads without pot holes? Pay your taxes.

You want to see an absence of homeless on the streets thanks to state sponsered programs? Pay your taxes.

You want to see hurricane reliefs for our cities? Pay your taxes.

You want a Police force, Fire Department, and an FBI? Pay your taxes.

You want military revenge for things like 9/11 and a CIA that maintains an anti-terrorist network? Pay your taxes.

As far as the thread title, working under the table and getting over has always been an American tradition. It's as American as apple pie.
 
Hatuey said:
Topsez - if you dont know what pstdkid is doing then you dont understand the topic and are debating for the sake of debating. This is a thread created by him to defend his hypocrisy. He called pagans un-american while at the same time failing to recognize that to ask the goverment for welfare money while working under the table and paying no taxes is pretty ****ing un-american.
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VA disability isn't welfare. It doesn't matter what he does from ironing clothes to day trading stocks... My last post indicates the government is complicit when it doesn't enforce the laws it creates. I used the speeding law as an example of 55MPH and only charging those who speed over 70MPH... The government is complicit inasmuch the government understands all citizens will violate the law by 10MPH so in stead of setting the limit at 65MPH they set it at 55MPH with expectation of safety at 65MPH. If a law means something then the speed limit should be set at the speed allowed by the lawmaker and any violator should then be stopped when exceeding the posted LAWful limit. That doesn't mean each person has to be ticketed but warned or if blatantly violating the law then ticketed.

So it doesn't matter to me what pstdkid does to earn money illegally and how much he earns either. To me it is as simple as the speed limit analogy and if he's doing 90 in a 55MPH he should be ticketed but if he is doing 64MPH in a 55MPH he is doing exactly as the LAWful citizens around him do... Now tell me you don't exceed posted speed limits. Should the government enforce the laws starting with the excessive violators with severe punishment then those seeing the flashing lights will drive the exact limit or less.
 
tecoyah said:
OK....even you Kid, cannot expect this to be a valid anology to the topic. In Roe v Wade there is no clause telling you to get an abortion, whereas the law clearly states what taxes must be paid. The transparent attempt to sideline your OWN THREAD by changing the topic has become standard practice, and expected in a way.

***Looks like it is you playing semantics with the Roe v Wade ruling. I don't expect any pregnant woman to feel its her duty to abort/murder her unborn just because the ruling grants her that right. So whereas the criminally mandated law to pay or not to pay exceeding high taxes should and is dealt with on a personal basis--so is the Roe v Wade law a personal decision.
You may notice that the burden to get others to remain on topic always seem to rest on my shoulders. How often do you hear me say, "Can we get back to the original theme"? So where I saw this thread wavering between name calling and a righteous dignation toward our government laws--I decided to condescend back to the mentality level of the 10 that voted yes to declaring working under the table as being un-American. I figured by comparing the criminal act of heavily taxing hard working Americans two times to that of the criminal act of abortion--that maybe, just maybe...others will think twice about faithfully following the role of a corrupt government.




YOU asked for opinions on your own activities, and have been told you are breaking the law, and to an extent that you are a Hypocrite. Rather than try to deny these things, you move on to something else in an attempt to salvage what you can from a completely stomped Ego....why do you bother....seriously.

***Again, I hope every woman contemplating having an abortion--decides that it would be in her and her baby's best interest to avoid laws that say it is alright to murder.

You are without a doubt....the worst debator on this entire site, and generally are simply used for entertainment by most here. Unfortunately....thats starting to wear a bit thin as well.....why not just take another month off, and call it a Christmas Present to the Masses.
Click to expand...

***Something that you and others here haven't taken into consideration here, is the fact that most people deciding to work under the table have already paid mucho taxes from their 1st and second jobs, so as GySgt says (and I happen to agree with this)...."Working under the table is as American as ice cream and apple pie". Sorry if I got a few words mixed up there...but you get the idea.

***Is the idea of debating just to get all sides to an issue, or is it also an exercise in which to consider winning as being the end road to fruition? You put up a great fight while it lasted, but I'm going to have to declare myself the winner here. You see, I consider myself to be the all-American icon to the DP viewing audience. I have my honrable service in a war to help substantiate my claims, and everything I do and stand for is done in the all-American apple-pie way.
 
Synch said:
How can you steal something from someone who was not entitled to it in the first place?
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But the government is entitled to it, as are the people who receive benefits. Our laws say they are entitled to the money, and therefore if you do not give them the money you are breaking the law -- you are stealing.

I do understand your point, that the government has no real constitutional right to tax us anyway, and so by withholding our tax dollars, we are defending our rights against a tyrannical institution -- right? Is that what you're driving at?

If it is, then it comes down to how you resist the government. If you resist by protesting, by writing letters and calling congressmen, by passing petitions, by marching, etc., then I think you are acting to defend your rights. If you resist by keeping money you earn and not paying taxes, then the people you are hurting are those who get help from the government -- who are not the ones behind the taxes. If you imagine that by keeping your money you harm the politicians who get fat off of your labor, you are mistaken; you are hurting your fellow Americans. That keeps it from being a patriotic action, and makes it a criminal one, IMO.

If you don't like the laws, change them. If it speaks to the purpose, then break them. But breaking them in such a way that you profit and other innocent people are hurt is not righteous.

Synch said:
The Poll directly states "Is it Un-American to work under the table?", that implies a cultural issue. It can be extrapolated as "Is it not corresponding with American Culture to work under the table if the feel the tax system is unjust on you.(I'll assume here that the tax evader is a good person at heart.)

The question is not whether contributing to the underground economy is following and respectful to the current American law that dictates the field of taxes, or course it's not, the question is whether it is akin to the American Culture for a person to put up resistance to the tax collector if the person being tax feels it is unjust.
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A good point. But I don't believe that it is American to resist out of selfish causes, which I believe tax evasion represents. Resisting the tax collector means confronting him, questioning him, making his job difficult; not hiding when he comes by. Resisting taxes is absolutely American, and probably something we should all do more of -- but that doesn't mean evading them. I'd say we should all wait until five-before-midnight April 15, and then all demand that the Post Office stamp our mail, and if they don't, start suing every government employee in sight. Or send in a tax return, but make them come and collect the money. Or simply include nasty letters with every return. Or pay your taxes in nickels.

Those would be resistance. That would be American.

Synch said:
You don't see anything wrong with that?
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People paying more into the system than they get out? Not particularly, no. The distribution is not equitable for anyone. I lean toward eliminating it, sometimes, but then I remember the good things (I think them good things) that come out of the government's entitlement programs, and I think about how few people would pay for these programs if they were not forced to, and I think it is better to try to reform the system than to eliminate it. So: I'd like to see government reduced and taxes lowered, but I'd rather see waste eliminated and efficiency prized and more of the money going where it is supposed to.

So what political stripe does that make me?
 
ptsdkid said:
***Something that you and others here haven't taken into consideration here, is the fact that most people deciding to work under the table have already paid mucho taxes from their 1st and second jobs, so as GySgt says (and I happen to agree with this)...."Working under the table is as American as ice cream and apple pie". Sorry if I got a few words mixed up there...but you get the idea.
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How many hours in the day are there? Are you suggesting that it is American to work three jobs and not pay taxes on the third?
Are you ignoring issues of scale again? I thought it had been cleared up that someone who takes a couple hundred bucks to help his friends re-roof his house is not evading taxes; someone who creates a roofing business without a license is evading taxes. That is what we have been declaring to be un-American. Or someone like you, you all-American icon you, who refuses to pay taxes and yet takes government money from other taxpayers. Who do you think you are screwing over with your righteous protest? Here's a hint: it ain't the politicians.


ptsdkid said:
***Is the idea of debating just to get all sides to an issue, or is it also an exercise in which to consider winning as being the end road to fruition? You put up a great fight while it lasted, but I'm going to have to declare myself the winner here. You see, I consider myself to be the all-American icon to the DP viewing audience. I have my honrable service in a war to help substantiate my claims, and everything I do and stand for is done in the all-American apple-pie way.
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Yeah, you always call yourself the winner, and it always happens after you don't debate anything at all. Since "winner" apparently means "Totally irrelevant to any actual debate" in your mind, I'll agree: you're the "winner."
 
CoffeeSaint said:
Yeah, you always call yourself the winner, and it always happens after you don't debate anything at all. Since "winner" apparently means "Totally irrelevant to any actual debate" in your mind, I'll agree: you're the "winner."
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Think he really meant WEINNER.:2wave:
 
i don't think it is because people in america have worked under the table for years.
 
We Americans need to have our taxes increased. We need to stop going into debt with China so we can fight in Iraq. Is it unamerican to have good security? to have a good military, to have good hopitals, to have good airports, to have medicines for the people. to have good roads, fire departments and Police? To have good schools for education, and good employment besides McDonalds, and taco time? we need to clamp down on wild credit card usage.

We need to get rid of Bush, get out of Bush's war, and start learning how get along as we use to do for the most part. Now all we seem to have is threats, pointless war, and a script designed to make us feel insecure, so idiots like Bush, cheney, rumsfeldt, lie constantly and threaten the world instead of trying to solve problems.
 
Hatuey said:
What do you call mexicans selling oranges?
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Errrrrr, illegal alien? I dont know what? I tried to find the answer but the closest thing i found was this:

"What do you want them to sell — Steinways? According to Dolores, who sells oranges off the 91 Freeway/Euclid onramp, in Anaheim, she can earn almost $100 per week hawking the fruit. That averages out to more than $5,000 a year — and since it's the underground economy, she doesn't pay taxes!"

link
 
ptsdkid said:
You may notice that the burden to get others to remain on topic always seem to rest on my shoulders. How often do you hear me say, "Can we get back to the original theme"?
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And this is always where I must come in and point out the obvious underlying agenda of your threads. This thread was a self-serving attempt to do damage control on your ill-fated presentation of your dishonest and illegal behavior in both tax evasion, illegally obtaining disability funds, and disability misrepresentation. These issues are for the federal government to handle. Here at DP, the issue is your integrity and credibility which has been forever destroyed. You spout American values, but steal from Americans. You claim to support the American government, but you cheat the American government. You claim to have a disability (which I believe), but use it to obtain funds illegally, and to use it in a singularly self-serving way trouncing on others and/or damaging the potential credibility of other's disability claims. All the while you call yourself patriotic. A patriot does not do this.

Also, your attempt at bringing abortion into this is a debate fallacy on so many levels, it's mind-staggering. Firstly, it's a Red herring. Secondly, it's a Tu quoque ("you too") logical fallacy; claiming 'well you do this other thing wrong' does nothing to impact your position on the issue at hand. Lastly, it is a poor attempt to shift the focus away from what this thread is about: an attempt to divert the exposure of your disingenuous behavior. You claim that others are veering off topic, when it is actually you that are.

I have no doubt that you are quite intelligent, kid, but you slipped. Your true self has been exposed for all of DP to see. And it's spreading to other threads like sunlight after the rain. I liked you better when you were just an extremist...at least then you were consistent and had some integrity.


So where I saw this thread wavering between name calling and a righteous dignation toward our government laws--I decided to condescend back to the mentality level of the 10 that voted yes to declaring working under the table as being un-American. I figured by comparing the criminal act of heavily taxing hard working Americans two times to that of the criminal act of abortion--that maybe, just maybe...others will think twice about faithfully following the role of a corrupt government.
Click to expand...

OK, so do something about changing the laws. Write Congress. Heck, run for Congress. Protest. Something. Doing something illegal just makes you another cog in the whole corrupt system.

Is the idea of debating just to get all sides to an issue, or is it also an exercise in which to consider winning as being the end road to fruition? You put up a great fight while it lasted, but I'm going to have to declare myself the winner here. You see, I consider myself to be the all-American icon to the DP viewing audience. I have my honrable service in a war to help substantiate my claims, and everything I do and stand for is done in the all-American apple-pie way.
Click to expand...

Declare what you want, kid. I and others have exposed you and shown how your behavior is, most certainly, against America. The evidence is here and in other posts of ours and even in some of yours. Working under the table in the way that you do it is akin to saying 'stick it' to America.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
This thread was a self-serving attempt to do damage control on your ill-fated presentation of your dishonest and illegal behavior in both tax evasion, illegally obtaining disability funds, and disability misrepresentation. These issues are for the federal government to handle. Here at DP, the issue is your integrity and credibility which has been forever destroyed. You spout American values, but steal from Americans. You claim to support the American government, but you cheat the American government. You claim to have a disability (which I believe), but use it to obtain funds illegally, and to use it in a singularly self-serving way trouncing on others and/or damaging the potential credibility of other's disability claims. All the while you call yourself patriotic. A patriot does not do this.

***And I thought the DP morality leader was Tecoya. You sure are bucking to take over his title. Don't get me wrong, I'm pulling for you. Dethroning sitting ducks has always been an American pastime.
Let me start with correcting you. I did nothing dishonest; no dishonest behavior; no tax evasion; no obtaining illegal disability funds, and no disability representation.

Also, your attempt at bringing abortion into this is a debate fallacy on so many levels, it's mind-staggering. Firstly, it's a Red herring. Secondly, it's a Tu quoque ("you too") logical fallacy; claiming 'well you do this other thing wrong' does nothing to impact your position on the issue at hand. Lastly, it is a poor attempt to shift the focus away from what this thread is about: an attempt to divert the exposure of your disingenuous behavior. You claim that others are veering off topic, when it is actually you that are.

***The abortion issue happens to be the perfect example in which to compare one criminal government intrusion to the other. You see, the focus here is to put the blame on the government for screwing with our rights, thus perpetuating the theme that it is anything but un-American to fight for our rights. . Remember the Boston Tea Party? I do...I was there. No taxation without representation, unless you want to engage in another revolution. You see Cap--we the people are the government, and with that right...we will fight back in whatever way makes a difference. I realize that tax relief from an under the table job is but one baby step in getting our message out there, but for now it will suffice; I have 11 all-Americans voting for me to succeed in this venture.

I have no doubt that you are quite intelligent, kid, but you slipped. Your true self has been exposed for all of DP to see. And it's spreading to other threads like sunlight after the rain. I liked you better when you were just an extremist...at least then you were consistent and had some integrity.

***Thanks for the heads-up, I keep forgetting to pick up that nasty banana peel from the slippery floor. Don't get so gloomy, I'm still that all-American extremist that you've grown to love. I'm even pondering doing a post on the effectiveness or not on American Captains and military leaders.




OK, so do something about changing the laws. Write Congress. Heck, run for Congress. Protest. Something. Doing something illegal just makes you another cog in the whole corrupt system.

***I think that by having me and thousands of other irate Americans continue to find tax-exempt or tax-sheltered jobs--that that would be a great message to help Congress change it's criminal laws.



Declare what you want, kid. I and others have exposed you and shown how your behavior is, most certainly, against America. The evidence is here and in other posts of ours and even in some of yours. Working under the table in the way that you do it is akin to saying 'stick it' to America.
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***Working under the table isn't 'sticking it to America'. I prefer the phrase 'keeping my hard earned money away from the vultures'. You see Cap, capitalism thrives when working people keep more of their money so that they can and do in turn invest it back into our economy. Please forgive me for having to teach you the basics of Economics 101, but everyone needs a refresher course now and then. What can be more all-American than wanting to and actually contributing to our thriving economy?
 
ptsdkid said:
What can be more all-American than wanting to and actually contributing to our thriving economy?
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If you were really interested in contributing to our country. You'd pay taxes like every other all-American does.
 
Hatuey said:
If you were really interested in contributing to our country. You'd pay taxes like every other all-American does.
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***I would surely love to oblige that request, but my disabilty prevents me from doing so. The paradox to this dilemma is that while not being able to work a tax paying job--I'm still able to work a tax exempt job in which much of that hard earned money does go back into our economy and to the charities of my choice...namely the disabled Veterans of America...so that I can proudly say that I've contributed to all phases of our thriving economy, and to those that helped secure our economy in the first place.
 
I would surely love to oblige that request, but my disabilty prevents me from doing so.
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Really dishability? Oh the one you got from not going to Vietnam?

The paradox to this dilemma is that while not being able to work a tax paying job--I'm still able to work a tax exempt job in which much of that hard earned money does go back into our economy and to the charities of my choice
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I'm sure it is. Is gambling one of those charities? Btw hows that Viper you were going to buy by gambling 40K of your money?

...namely the disabled Veterans of America...so that I can proudly say that I've contributed to all phases of our thriving economy, and to those that helped secure our economy in the first place.
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Ah yes the bullshit machine trying to make me feel sorry for calling you on yer bullshit. I'm sure the veterans will thank you even more if you help secure the economy of today by paying taxes like the "all-american man" should.
 
Damn, Hatuey, you beat me to it! :doh

ptsdkid said:
I would surely love to oblige that request, but my disabilty prevents me from doing so. The paradox to this dilemma is that while not being able to work a tax paying job--I'm still able to work a tax exempt job in which much of that hard earned money does go back into our economy and to the charities of my choice...namely the disabled Veterans of America...so that I can proudly say that I've contributed to all phases of our thriving economy, and to those that helped secure our economy in the first place.
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First, how about explaining the difference between the tax paying job and the tax exempt job and how it relates to your disability. I seem to recall you making a post, that was lost in the server crash, that you do under the table construction work, which is how you keep so fit. How does your disability allow you to do this?

Second, here's your quote, again,
much of that hard earned money does go back into our economy and to the charities of my choice...namely the disabled Veterans of America
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Now let me remind you of this:
I just put down 40 thousand dollars on my beloved Patriots football team to beat the Bears by more than 3 points. I'm taking that check for 40 grand and buying a used metallic blue with white racing stripes Dodge Viper. My girlfriend is estatic, and she'll be even more giddy when I tell her we're driving out to Las Vegas for a pre Christmas vaction in my new Viper toy.

Posted by ptsdkid on 11-27-06
Link: http://www.debatepolitics.com/438572-post34.html
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Your hypocracy and dishonesty has now been exposed for all to see, and in your own words. Your destuction is now complete.

Sorry I had to do this to you, kid, but exposing this kind of hypocracy is my job around here. :mrgreen:
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Damn, Hatuey, you beat me to it! :doh



First, how about explaining the difference between the tax paying job and the tax exempt job and how it relates to your disability. I seem to recall you making a post, that was lost in the server crash, that you do under the table construction work, which is how you keep so fit. How does your disability allow you to do this?

Second, here's your quote, again,
Now let me remind you of this:


Your hypocracy and dishonesty has now been exposed for all to see, and in your own words. Your destuction is now complete.

Sorry I had to do this to you, kid, but exposing this kind of hypocracy is my job around here. :mrgreen:
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*clicks play on his boombox and waits for the star-wars music to come one *

Tana-na-na!Ta-na-na-naaaaa!Tan-na-na-na-naaaaaaaaaa!Ta-na-na-naaaaaaaaaaaaa!

*thorws courtesy a lightsaber
 
Hatuey said:
*clicks play on his boombox and waits for the star-wars music to come one *

Tana-na-na!Ta-na-na-naaaaa!Tan-na-na-na-naaaaaaaaaa!Ta-na-na-naaaaaaaaaaaaa!

*thorws courtesy a lightsaber
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*Catches lightsaber*

"Thanks Hatuey. But wait, it is against the Jedi way to strike down one who is already defeated. Hmm...I sense a disturbance in the Force over at the Abortion forum. My powers may be needed elsewhere."

*Closes lightsaber and flies off*
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
*Catches lightsaber*

"Thanks Hatuey. But wait, it is against the Jedi way to strike down one who is already defeated. Hmm...I sense a disturbance in the Force over at the Abortion forum. My powers may be needed elsewhere."

*Closes lightsaber and flies off*
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My apologies master. Your wisdow and experience have once again proven to be a greater force then my youth and hot tempered-ness....
 
Hatuey said:
My apologies master. Your wisdow and experience have once again proven to be a greater force then my youth and hot tempered-ness....
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That is OK my young padawan. A fine Jedi, someday you may be.
 
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