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Is it Un-American to work under the table?

Is it Un-American to work under the table?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 42.9%
  • No

    Votes: 12 57.1%

  • Total voters
    21
Not to be knocking a fellow combat veteran.

But Rumor has it you never even saw soil of Vietnam, and never saw combat either.

***Let me take a wild stab at this: Since you seem to always be the one that skews content of the original postings (as with this one)--that it is you that started the rumor.
 
First hand, thanks.:2razz: Never knew a Liberal in the Corp, and in the 2004 election 95% active duty Army voted for GWB, while 98% of Marines voted GWB. Semper Fi.:2wave:

I'd love a source for this statistic.
 
***Let me take a wild stab at this: Since you seem to always be the one that skews content of the original postings (as with this one)--that it is you that started the rumor.

No.. not me.. I don't remember where that came from.

Maybe I would do a search to find out.
But your not really worth the effort.
 
A thief?

So let me get this straight: you believe all money inherently belongs to the government?

No. But the government money belongs to the citizens who pay it in. People that take social services from the government are taking tax money from their fellow citizens; this is normally done with the understanding that you are paying in what you can, or at least that you deserve the benefits according to the agreed-upon criteria.

Kid takes money from the government, and then he works and doesn't pay taxes; he's taking money without giving anything back. Makes him a thief to me. Do you feel otherwise?
 
***The point here is that most people do pay taxes by having their income taxed twice. So they are paying their taxes, and paying them at an outrageous rate. So I don't see working under the table to be breaking the law at all. What people do for and as a moonlighting endeavor--should be left up to them to do at their own discretion. Someone else here said that many people feel strapped because of their paltry tax-laden income, so they need to find and employ themselves again where the tax monster doesn't become a factor.

America is a democracy. If you don't like the taxes, change the law. Get out there and stump for a politician who will cut services and lower taxes. You don't get to obey the laws you like, and disobey those you don't like.

Somehow by working under the table keeps me from assimilating? LOL! You do have a weird sense of humor, but make me laugh...you did.

You bet it keeps you from assimilating. The vast majority of Americans pay taxes. It is a large part of our life. Do you pay taxes? No? Then you are not joining in with the rest of us to do your part. If you want to live somewhere that you don't have to pay any taxes, I'm sure there are some lovely deserted islands in the Pacific where you can settle.

So I'm un-American for wishing people luck in finding tax-exempt moonlighting employment. And I'm a thief because what...because I wish to see people make enough money to help offset a tax-reduced paycheck? And I'm a liar, for what...for suggesting that people enjoy living the American dream?

You are un-American for breaking our laws and taking advantage of your fellow Americans. You are un-American for encouraging others to break the laws. You are a thief because you take from the government, which means you take from your fellow citizens, but you do not contribute your fair share. And you're a liar because, well, you lie a lot. But in this specific case, claiming to the government that you don't make an income from these under-the-table jobs is lying by omission, at the very least.

You know, coffee...it seems to me that those taking the poll have outnumbered you 4 to 1 in their agreement with me on this working under the table issue. Perhaps it is you that is un-American, a thief in the night, and a habitual liar.

You're right, by god. The polls on this site are fair and balanced; in fact, I think we should make these polls legally binding. We can have trials online! Wouldn't that be a hoot?

You keep pushing the veracity of this poll, and I'll screw it up for you. Your call.

By the way, I do not lie and I do not steal. UnAmerican? By your definition, probably yes. But not for cheating on my taxes.
 
Many of the jobs that pay under the table are low paying jobs where the employer provides no insurance, benefits, ect.... If a college kid is being paid under the table to work a bit part time over christmas break I don't think it's such a big deal. However if an illegal alien, deadbeat parent, criminal, ect is seeking jobs where they are paid under the table long term I have a real problem with that. Many men who work under the table do so in order to avoid having money taken from their checks and given to those they owe. So if an employer is employing some guy under the table so the guy can avoid paying child support then they're both pieces of shite in my opinion.
I agree with all you state with exception of the portion in green. I think all illegal employment is illegal and if you support rule of law then you must support all. I don't think the spirit and intent of the law is to punish lemonaid or grass cutting children when taking compensation for work, however when a person opens a lawn maintenance business and picks up employees at the 7-11 illegally he harms legal competition for the service since many losses occur, form workmens compensation, tax, social security, insurance for injury and so on.

Too many people here work illegally and then take the benifits of other tax payers... work legally a year or two to qualify for SS and Medicare anytime in the future, let the government support the family as you work illegally and no one asks hey where have you been for the last thirty five years when it is time for those benifits qualified for with a couple years of legal work.

This topic directly relates to my Thread Poll: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards? but none of you guys seem to want to stand so strongly behind your position there with an almost two person debate on a like topic. This leaves me to think you are picking on the thread starter of this thread if you are not willing to beat up on illegal workers on my thread.
 
I agree with all you state with exception of the portion in green. I think all illegal employment is illegal and if you support rule of law then you must support all. I don't think the spirit and intent of the law is to punish lemonaid or grass cutting children when taking compensation for work, however when a person opens a lawn maintenance business and picks up employees at the 7-11 illegally he harms legal competition for the service since many losses occur, form workmens compensation, tax, social security, insurance for injury and so on.

Not to sound corny but should 2 little girls selling lemonade and making a profit be forced to pay taxes? I mean they're not legaly employed by anyone and if they're making a profit they're harming the legal competition. What pstdkid does, doesn't compare to some kid(litteraly) making some pocket change during a summer job. Should 13 year old girls pay taxes for babysitting their neighbours children?
 
Not to sound corny but should 2 little girls selling lemonade and making a profit be forced to pay taxes? I mean they're not legaly employed by anyone and if they're making a profit they're harming the legal competition. What pstdkid does, doesn't compare to some kid(litteraly) making some pocket change during a summer job. Should 13 year old girls pay taxes for babysitting their neighbours children?
Like I said earlier I think the spirit and intent of the law is to encourage maximum participation of contributions to the state. Some local laws require yard sales to pay taxes and Mayor of NY Rudy required unlicenced hotdog vendors out of business... it is a thin line but a line that is logically enforced... Cutting grass and caring for babies is a big business with much liability and the gain of work ethic skills has to be weighed with the cost to those making a living with the same business.
 
Like I said earlier I think the spirit and intent of the law is to encourage maximum participation of contributions to the state. Some local laws require yard sales to pay taxes and Mayor of NY Rudy required unlicenced hotdog vendors out of business... it is a thin line but a line that is logically enforced... Cutting grass and caring for babies is a big business with much liability and the gain of work ethic skills has to be weighed with the cost to those making a living with the same business.

You didnt awnser my question. Should 2 little girls selling lemonade be forced to pay taxes? What pstdkid does and what some teens and kids do to earn change can't be compared. Pstdkid is ripping the goverment off. Some kid making change over the summer isn't hurting tax payers.
 
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You didnt awnser my question. Should 2 little girls selling lemonade be forced to pay taxes? What pstdkid does and what some teens and kids do to earn change can't be compared.
The two little girls should be required to obtain a license just as soon as police monitor 7-11 or other day laborer hiring sites for employees that other tax payers have to cover. I don't know what pstdkid does to supplement his income so I can't make a comparrison. There are so many laws ignored by the government and laws enacted that harm taxpayers it is difficult to place blame on either party since the government is complicit with illegal hiring. When the government doesn't enforce laws then we end up with 20 million people here using our system illegally, likewise when the government turns a blind eye to that is is burdensome to place moral judgment on anyone, especially an American citizen who circumvents the tax system. It is like a law is passed to limit the speed limit to 55MPH and the police only charge those doing 70MPH or higher with fines. Trim the illegal from the top down and make "spirit and intent judgments for the lemonade kids.
 
The two little girls should be required to obtain a license just as soon as police monitor 7-11 or other day laborer hiring sites for employees that other tax payers have to cover. I don't know what pstdkid does to supplement his income so I can't make a comparrison. There are so many laws ignored by the government and laws enacted that harm taxpayers it is difficult to place blame on either party since the government is complicit with illegal hiring. When the government doesn't enforce laws then we end up with 20 million people here using our system illegally, likewise when the government turns a blind eye to that is is burdensome to place moral judgment on anyone, especially an American citizen who circumvents the tax system. It is like a law is passed to limit the speed limit to 55MPH and the police only charge those doing 70MPH or higher with fines. Trim the illegal from the top down and make "spirit and intent judgments for the lemonade kids.

Topsez - if you dont know what pstdkid is doing then you dont understand the topic and are debating for the sake of debating. This is a thread created by him to defend his hypocrisy. He called pagans un-american while at the same time failing to recognize that to ask the goverment for welfare money while working under the table and paying no taxes is pretty ****ing un-american.
 
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***Choices are far too vague? Isn't that where the action of debate could help broaden the choices? Sorry I didn't give you more than the obligartory two choices of No and Yes. I'm surprised that you couldn't devise an option of your own to add to the debate. Captain's generally have the knack to inspire and lead. Please don't let us down. Every poll or post I put here is presented with a personal feeling toward the issue. Sorry if my posts don't live up to your standards. There are other postings from less controversial politicos that you could feel more satisfaction with...I'm sure. Please don't feel the need to disrupt any or all of my postings. This post will surely survive without you.

You know, kid, in the past I've actually enjoyed debating you (no one shoot me). No matter how wrong I thought you were, or how wrong you were, one things stood pat: you were consistent. Always made for interesting debate. Now, however, the true hypocrite in you is exposed for everyone to see. You are stealing money from other Americans. The money that each of us puts into the fund, every month, is to go to those that acutally need it. I have read, extensively, the guidelines around obtaining disability benefits, and I can tell you, without question, what you are doing is illegal, and hypocritical to the American values that you claim to have. It will be impossible to take any tenet you stand for seriously, as you have completely dismantled any integrity you may have had.

Let me give you an example of integrity. My brother, whom I take care of, has a disability similar to yours, for which he receives Social Security. He works part time at a very low paying job, making less money then is the limit that Social Security sets in order to receive benefits. He works primarily for socialization and so his emotional disability doesn't become worse. A month ago, his supervisor, unbenownst to my brother, scheduled him for many hours of holiday pay. By the time he found out, he already had the money in his account (direct deposit). This put him over the limit for the month. After we talked about it, he called Social Security, alerted them, and they told him, that though it wasn't his error, he wouldn't receive his Social Security check for the month. He expected this to happen. He felt (as I did) that he did the right thing to not take money dishonestly.

And I will not add options to your poll. Your poll is a poor attempt to do damage control to your integrity.

I believe that it is un-American to steal from the government and both chastize others for doing the same thing, and, also, claim to support the government at the same time. I will leave others to debate this point further, and noticing from this thread, others are doing just fine. I will say, however, it is absolutely hypocritical to steal from the government and both chastize others for doing the same thing, and, also, claim to support the government at the same time. This is what you do and how you've lost your credibility.
 
you are denying the rightness of the commonly-held belief that taxes are a necessary evil.
Maybe I believe that the current taxes are too draconian. Taxes are the price we pay for civilized society, but too much of it could lead society closer to the road to serfdom.


and a liar.

I'd say it's the definition of un-American. I have been told many times that to be an American, you have to participate, you have to follow the laws, you have to assimilate.
What happened to multiculturalism?



By not paying taxes, you are not participating in the collective efforts.
Since when is collectivism embedded in American Culture?


By working "under the table" you are breaking the law.
Is the law always "American"?

And a thief,
What if I don't use social services?

you are not doing what everyone else does,
I didn't get the memo that whatever the group is forced to do by law is a virtue. Did you?

No. But the government money belongs to the citizens who pay it in.
Not necessarily true, many people pay in enormous sums to the government and never receive the social services others do.

This is normally done with the understanding that you are paying in what you can, or at least that you deserve the benefits according to the agreed-upon criteria.
So the only factor that determines whether action A is theft or not is whether by the wealth of the recipient? So if the person cannot pay[taxes] then it's not theft anymore? Why?
 
***The point here is that most people do pay taxes by having their income taxed twice. So they are paying their taxes, and paying them at an outrageous rate. So I don't see working under the table to be breaking the law at all. What people do for and as a moonlighting endeavor--should be left up to them to do at their own discretion. Someone else here said that many people feel strapped because of their paltry tax-laden income, so they need to find and employ themselves again where the tax monster doesn't become a factor.

Somehow by working under the table keeps me from assimilating? LOL! You do have a weird sense of humor, but make me laugh...you did.

So I'm un-American for wishing people luck in finding tax-exempt moonlighting employment. And I'm a thief because what...because I wish to see people make enough money to help offset a tax-reduced paycheck? And I'm a liar, for what...for suggesting that people enjoy living the American dream?

You know, coffee...it seems to me that those taking the poll have outnumbered you 4 to 1 in their agreement with me on this working under the table issue. Perhaps it is you that is un-American, a thief in the night, and a habitual liar.

Y'know, if I hadn't realized 3 or 4 months ago that you're just a troll account, posts like this might get a rise out of me.:cool:
 
Y'know, if I hadn't realized 3 or 4 months ago that you're just a troll account, posts like this might get a rise out of me.:cool:

OFF WITH HIS HEAD! In a civilized manner of course.
 
Maybe I believe that the current taxes are too draconian. Taxes are the price we pay for civilized society, but too much of it could lead society closer to the road to serfdom.

Hi, my name's CoffeeSaint. Would you like to join the conversation? Why, I see that you would! Please, pull up a chair.

If you don't like the taxes, change them. If you prefer to not pay them and not partake of the social services they fund, feel free -- though you will have to find your own compromise with your conscience in terms of accepting subsidized prices on goods and services, using roads, fire protection services, medical services, and so forth.

What you should not do is refuse to pay taxes and yet take as much money as you can from the system.

What happened to multiculturalism?
Different conversation. And we are not talking about culture here, but obeying the laws.



Since when is collectivism embedded in American Culture?
Since we are talking about the collective aspects of the country's government. We are not discussing cultural values.

Is the law always "American"?
When it is an American law? Well, yes. Yes it is. Does "American" always mean right or valuable? Of course not.

What if I don't use social services?
Then you should have the right to opt out of paying taxes, IMO. But determining who indeed does opt out of social services provided by the government is a fairly difficult task, I think.

I didn't get the memo that whatever the group is forced to do by law is a virtue. Did you?

Hi, welcome to the conversation. I guess you also didn't get the memo that said, Please don't act like a twerp in replying to comments that were never directed at you and were intended to address the specific topic and not the general concepts of libertarianism vs. collectivism.

Not necessarily true, many people pay in enormous sums to the government and never receive the social services others do.
And?

So the only factor that determines whether action A is theft or not is whether by the wealth of the recipient? So if the person cannot pay[taxes] then it's not theft anymore? Why?

Uh, no. It would be theft if the person receiving the benefits also makes money on the side without reporting it, thus making the benefits themselves unnecessary; he is in essence stealing them from someone who needs them more.

Thanks for your input.
 
Do you know something that we non-mods don't?

Oh no, nothing like that.

It's just not logically possible for someone to be that......well, that ptsdkid. I've concluded that he has to be a really bored, really twisted wealthy liberal who has too much time on his free hands and is just doing this for kicks and giggles. Probably a gender studies professor or something.:lol:
 
Uh, no. It would be theft if the person receiving the benefits also makes money on the side without reporting it, thus making the benefits themselves unnecessary; he is in essence stealing them from someone who needs them more.
How can you steal something from someone who was not entitled to it in the first place?

Different conversation. And we are not talking about culture here, but obeying the laws.


Since we are talking about the collective aspects of the country's government. We are not discussing cultural values.

When it is an American law? Well, yes. Yes it is. Does "American" always mean right or valuable? Of course not.
The Poll directly states "Is it Un-American to work under the table?", that implies a cultural issue. It can be extrapolated as "Is it not corresponding with American Culture to work under the table if the feel the tax system is unjust on you.(I'll assume here that the tax evader is a good person at heart.)

The question is not whether contributing to the underground economy is following and respectful to the current American law that dictates the field of taxes, or course it's not, the question is whether it is akin to the American Culture for a person to put up resistance to the tax collector if the person being tax feels it is unjust.

Then you should have the right to opt out of paying taxes, IMO. But determining who indeed does opt out of social services provided by the government is a fairly difficult task, I think.
It's not just SS.

You don't see anything wrong with that?
 
Oh no, nothing like that.

It's just not logically possible for someone to be that......well, that ptsdkid. I've concluded that he has to be a really bored, really twisted wealthy liberal who has too much time on his free hands and is just doing this for kicks and giggles. Probably a gender studies professor or something.:lol:

:rofl
I suppose it's possible, but if it is then he's doing a world class job staying in character. Even Stephen Colbert breaks character now and then. :lol:

The level of intelligence (or lack thereof) expressed in his posts makes me think that no one could consistently write such stupid things unless they actually WERE that stupid.
 
The level of intelligence (or lack thereof) expressed in his posts makes me think that no one could consistently write such stupid things unless they actually WERE that stupid.

The discovery of such a being would destroy the theory of evolution as we know it.
 
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