Does God exist?

kal-el · Oct 11, 2006

Jerry said:
If you can't support your position that the Christian view of God is contradictory then just say so. You haven't sourced anything so I have to disregard the above quote.

Fine. But you can't be selective with bible quotes, you must disregard the entire piece of work then. You are only as strong as your weakest link- so if one part is bad, the entire thing must be thrown out. And lastly, if you say God is love, why don't you love your fellow human, God's creation? Just something to ponder.

Since I am not the one who cherry-picked the quotation from Genesis, it is not I who can be accused of rewriting anything.

Please note that it was Hipster, not I, who started the bible quoting. He made an accusation and has yet to substantiate it.

You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but as I am not an evangelical, like the majority of Christians I have come across, I feel no compulsion to sway others into my faith.

This diatribe has no context.

Have I said anything to you about being tortured forever for not buying into a certain brand of anything? No I have not.

Well, that is a tenet of Christianity. Believe or be tortured, via Mark 16:16. You don't have to say it, being is you're a Christian, you believe that anyone who doesn't buy into your brand of superstition will be tortured forever. Jesus said it.

And I'm constantly being called "illogical" and a "bigot" for simply having a faith. I'm constantly given crap for riding a bike around town, for hammering with my right hand...I even got chased by some natives on my way to work the other day because I'm white. So Kal, welcome to the club.

And you have a right to vent about it. But so do I. I mean, you tell me to just let it be, but in all actuality, people everywhere treat me as some lower lifeform because they believe in an invisable man, and revert to calling me names, do you expect me to sit back and be quiet?

That statement has no context.

It was a joke, get over it. You act like your wearing a coat hanger. Pay attention.

I said this:

They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal

You said nobody sacrificed kids to Baal. Clearly either you're blatantly lying, or else you have selective vision. Either way, admit you're wrong about this to save some face.

Of coarse not. I conclusively proved you to be in error.

:rofl Are you serious? If this God of yours has complete foreknowledge of events and afterknowledge, he had to be aware of this. So, he was lying when he said it didn't enter his mind.

You are accusing me of what you are doing yourself. Scripture clearly says that he was up set over having made his vow precisely because he could not undo it.

Sure he was. But he still did it. If he was that dishearted over it, he wouldn't have went through with it. It's his own damn fault for making that kind of vow. I mean he promised to offer the first person that walked out of his house to meet him, and he had to know at the time he made the vow that he would slay his daughter. I mean he had no sons. His daughter was fine with dying, sure he gave her 2 months to cry or whatever about it.

Jerry · Oct 11, 2006

kal-el said:
Fine. But you can't be selective with bible quotes, you must disregard the entire piece of work then. You are only as strong as your weakest link- so if one part is bad, the entire thing must be thrown out. And lastly, if you say God is love, why don't you love your fellow human, God's creation? Just something to ponder.

I see that you are in error by assuming that I do not love my fellow man by not supporting an act which is contrary to God's law.

kal-el said:
Well, that is a tenet of Christianity. Believe or be tortured, via Mark 16:16. You don't have to say it, being is you're a Christian, you believe that anyone who doesn't buy into your brand of superstition will be tortured forever. Jesus said it.

I will reiterate here that Christianity was never an orthodoxy. Christianity has always been a heterodoxy. The only single thing that all Christians shear is a faith in Jesus, and even that has various hews.

It is not possible to say that all Christians subscribe to "believe or be tortured", 'repent or go to hell', or similar, with any degree of reliability.

In any event, I have said no such thing to you, so I have not shown myself to be the type of Christian you so passionately pursue.

kal-el said:
And you have a right to vent about it. But so do I. I mean, you tell me to just let it be, but in all actuality, people everywhere treat me as some lower lifeform because they believe in an invisable man, and revert to calling me names, do you expect me to sit back and be quiet?

At the very least I expect you not to attack those who have not treated you as a lower life form, such as myself.

kal-el said:
It was a joke, get over it. You act like your wearing a coat hanger. Pay attention.

I said this:

You said nobody sacrificed kids to Baal. Clearly either you're blatantly lying, or else you have selective vision. Either way, admit you're wrong about this to save some face.

Judges 11:30;
And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

Right or wrong, the sacrifice was made to LORD, not Ball.

Please cut and post where I said sad "nobody sacrificed kids to Baal".

To the best of my memory I was speaking of Jephthah and that spicific vow, not just any given person nor earth's population as a whole.

kal-el said:
:rofl Are you serious? If this God of yours has complete foreknowledge of events and afterknowledge, he had to be aware of this. So, he was lying when he said it didn't enter his mind.

This is where we have to brake out the original script.
Are you fluent with ancient Hebrew?

kal-el said:
Sure he was. But he still did it. If he was that dishearted over it, he wouldn't have went through with it. It's his own damn fault for making that kind of vow. I mean he promised to offer the first person that walked out of his house to meet him, and he had to know at the time he made the vow that he would slay his daughter. I mean he had no sons. His daughter was fine with dying, sure he gave her 2 months to cry or whatever about it.

In the above quote you first acknowledge Jephthah distraught, then deny it in the following sentence.

We agree that it is his own fault for making that kind of vow, however when one gives their word to God, they can not brake it.

kal-el · Oct 11, 2006

Jerry said:
I see that you are in error by assuming that I do not love my fellow man by not supporting an act which is contrary to God's law.

What act are we talking about here? Please be specific.

I will reiterate here that Christianity was never an orthodoxy. Christianity has always been a heterodoxy. The only single thing that all Christians shear is a faith in Jesus, and even that has various hews.

That's the main reason I can't buy into it anymore. Sure, it would be quite different if no other religions or sects existed. But there's thousands of different religions and sects.

It is not possible to say that all Christians subscribe to "believe or be tortured", 'repent or go to hell', or similar, with any degree of reliability.

Well isn't hell for non-believer's? And isn't it true that you're tortured eternally down there? I'd say if they don't believe that, why follow Christianity then, if there's no punishment for disbelief?

In any event, I have said no such thing to you, so I have not shown myself to be the type of Christian you so passionately pursue.

I do not pursue anyone. It's just when I see someone post something I strongly disagree with, I speak up. Recently, I have just been asking questions and stating my position on things. There's quite a difference.

At the very least I expect you not to attack those who have not treated you as a lower life form, such as myself.

Fair enough.

Judges 11:30;
And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

Right or wrong, the sacrifice was made to LORD, not Ball.

Sure THAT ONE. But you were referring to when I quoted Jermiah 19:5, and to which you said: "....so your claim that "God is lying here also" remains unproven, thus I must reject your doctrin here."

Please cut and post where I said sad "nobody sacrificed kids to Baal".

2nd. God did not request, comand, mention nor propose such a vow. Also, this vow has nothing to do with offering a human sacrifice to Ball, which you infered a coralation to when you quoted:

This is where we have to brake out the original script.
Are you fluent with ancient Hebrew?

Negative.

In the above quote you first acknowledge Jephthah distraught, then deny it in the following sentence.

Dude, if he was that distraught over the fact that he was forced to butcher his daughter, he wouldn't have done it. Plain and simple. The bible only spends less than a sentence speaking about how he was feeling bad about it. If it were such a big deal, if he felt so bad about it, they would have devoted at least a paragraph, don't you think?

We agree that it is his own fault for making that kind of vow, however when one gives their word to God, they can not brake it.

Wow, that's about the only thing I agree with you on Jerry.

Jerry · Oct 14, 2006

kal-el said:
What act are we talking about here? Please be specific.

I'm lost.
I guess I didn't understand the context when you said "And lastly, if you say God is love, why don't you love your fellow human, God's creation? Just something to ponder.", as that didn't seem relevant to anything you were responding to.

kal-el said:
That's the main reason I can't buy into it anymore. Sure, it would be quite different if no other religions or sects existed. But there's thousands of different religions and sects.

I think that in order for one religion to exist we would all have to approach life from the same premises. However, given the diversity of circumstances of birth and life experiences, IMO the existence of many diverse views of God is the logical outcome.

All I can say is, look for the truth. When we die we will all know what that truth is to an absolute degree, but for now all we can do is our best.

kal-el said:
Well isn't hell for non-believer's? And isn't it true that you're tortured eternally down there? I'd say if they don't believe that, why follow Christianity then, if there's no punishment for disbelief?

Since I find the rule-by-fear approach repulsive, I do not subscribe to Baptism, Catholicism, or similar.

To the best of my knowledge people are not punished for simply not believing a thing, but either suffer the natural consequences of their own folly, or are punished for braking a spicific crime.

My understanding of the Judgment is that it is a self-judgment. The punishment one experiences is self inflicted.

kal-el said:
Sure THAT ONE. But you were referring to when I quoted Jermiah 19:5, and to which you said: "....so your claim that "God is lying here also" remains unproven, thus I must reject your doctrin here."

I do believe that it is apparent that our modes of interpreting scripture are working in the exact opposite direction to each other.

Using the "The negative is the default position" approach, you seek to verify or debunk the initial premises with scriptural evidence.

You are challenging the initial assumptions, which is why we get caught up in the endless regression of proofs for assumptions, and proofs of proofs for assumptions.

When I see the unlikely high amount of scriptural prophecy which has come to pass, observe prophecy coming to pass right before me, review works like that of Stan Tenon and the Biocybernaut Institute
, review physical evidence like the Great Pyramid and learn of commonalities between religions, it is my opinion that the initial assumption that God exists, and the initial assumption that God's primary attribute is perfect love, is reasonable.

I accept the initial assumptions and look through them to interpret scripture.

I disagree with your interpretation that "nor did it enter my mind" = 'I had no idea this was going on', or similar.

Of coarse God knows it's going on, He's omniscient. So given that and given that God is without sin and is perfect love: The way I interpret it, God is saying that people sacrificing children as burnt offerings to Him is not something He ever considered or perused; nor is sacrificing children to Ball being acceptable something He ever considered or perused.

kal-el said:
Dude, if he was that distraught over the fact that he was forced to butcher his daughter, he wouldn't have done it. Plain and simple.

Emotion does not override contractual obligation. I can not agree with you on this interpretation.

kal-el said:
The bible only spends less than a sentence speaking about how he was feeling bad about it. If it were such a big deal, if he felt so bad about it, they would have devoted at least a paragraph, don't you think?

I see no reason to assume a correlation between viability of a fact and the length of the statement of that fact.

Dogger807 · Oct 17, 2006

Hello again everyone. Sorry to break the train of thought on the current thread, but I have a tendency of only being able to contribute to the debates for a few days before real life calls and when I manage to get back threads have taken a new turn.

However, I still haven't received and answear to my question earlier in the thread. How can you look at all the earlier religions of the human race and declare them superstition then in the next breath claim you have the right god and the right way of worship? I'm well aware I can't disprove the existence of the invisible pink unicorn anymore than you can prove her existence. Yes we all know your imaginary friend is all powerful and unmeasurable for sake of being unable to corner it thru logic. Arguments for religion are never "yes I have evidence for my stance" they are by nature "No, I have no evidence , but you have no evidence contradicting my beliefs either." As if lack of evidence if evidence of superstition.

No, what I want you theists to do is defend your religios viewpoints. Support your superstitious views as right instead of trying to pull down other views to be equal to religion. You can't do it because religion is just "faith" nothing more... no substance.

Since you can't you'll just say something along the lines that no one can understand your imaginary friend, and try to infuse doubt into the debate and claim that doubt is answered by religion.

Jerry · Oct 17, 2006

dogger807 said:
Hello again everyone. Sorry to break the train of thought on the current thread, but I have a tendency of only being able to contribute to the debates for a few days before real life calls and when I manage to get back threads have taken a new turn.

However, I still haven't received and answear to my question earlier in the thread. How can you look at all the earlier religions of the human race and declare them superstition then in the next breath claim you have the right god and the right way of worship? I'm well aware I can't disprove the existence of the invisible pink unicorn anymore than you can prove her existence. Yes we all know your imaginary friend is all powerful and unmeasurable for sake of being unable to corner it thru logic. Arguments for religion are never "yes I have evidence for my stance" they are by nature "No, I have no evidence , but you have no evidence contradicting my beliefs either." As if lack of evidence if evidence of superstition.

No, what I want you theists to do is defend your religios viewpoints. Support your superstitious views as right instead of trying to pull down other views to be equal to religion. You can't do it because religion is just "faith" nothing more... no substance.

Since you can't you'll just say something along the lines that no one can understand your imaginary friend, and try to infuse doubt into the debate and claim that doubt is answered by religion.

The people who you wish to answer your question are not on this thread. You will need to look ells where.

hipsterdufus · Oct 17, 2006

Jerry said:
What do you find attractive or appealing in religion?

Nothing at all.

rathi · Oct 17, 2006

God, defined as a being outside current scientific thought who does the stuff in the mentioned in holy books, probably does not exist. The bible, like norse mythology or the King Arthur stories, is probably fiction with a small basis in historical events. Currently, I have no compelling evidence to believe that god exists. However, I am perfectly willing to accept a supernatural beings existence if compelling evidence does exist. For example, if my glass of water were to spontaneously turn into wine, I might change my decesion. However, even if supernatural beings do exist, that certainly doesn't mean that organized relegion is correct.

The face of Jacob · Oct 21, 2006

Thre reason why I as a child of Israel belive in the existence of God is because he was the one who took my 3 millions ancestors from slavery of 200 years of slavery in anceint Egypt. And he did it with great miracles not from this world.

The Torah (which means teaching in Hebrew) is a document which was given to the Israeli nation in the end of a miraculous journey. A journey which included the 10 strikes that God brought upon the Egyptians, the tearing of the Red sea, the food from the sky for 40 years, the water from the wondering well for 40 years, the fire pillar in the night, the cloud pillar in the day, a revelation infront of millions of people in mount Horeb in the Sinai desert. (The Torah mentions that 600,000 men over 18 were witnessed these revelations, the orally Torah mentions that the rest were their wives, children, family, 3 millions in total).

The Torah is a document which tells the history of the world since God created it till the exodus from Egypt untill the entrance of the children of Israel to the promise land. The Torah (and the other books in the Tanach) is written in Hebrew, the language which God created the world with.

Here are examples in the Torah that God speaks to the children of Israel and tells them that they were witnessed to the journey and to the acception of the Torah commandments:

Exodus Chapter 20:14

And all the people perceived the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the voice of the horn, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled, and stood afar off.

Deuteronomy Chapter 5:1-4

And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them: Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and observe to do them.The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. The LORD spoke with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire.

Exodus Chapter 20:18

And the LORD said unto Moses: Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel: Ye yourselves have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

Deuteronomy Chapter 29:1

And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them: Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;

Deuteronomy Chapter 29:9

Ye are standing this day all of you before the LORD your God: your heads, your tribes, your elders, and your officers, even all the men of Israel.

The children of Israel witnessed all those things and recieved the Torah at the times that the events accured. If the writtings in the Torah weren't true then the children of Israeli wouldn't have agree to accept it.

In this next quote God tells the children of Israel that there will never be a nation or someone in the world, except the children of Israel, who can claim that he or they have witnessed a revelation like the children of Israel have witnessed:

Deuteronomy Chapter 4:32-34

For ask now of the days past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and from the one end of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it? Did ever a people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live? Or hath God assayed to go and take Him a nation from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by an outstretched arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before thine eyes.

In this next quote, God commands not to make changes in the Torah:

Deuteronomy Chapter 4:1-2

And now, O Israel, hearken unto the statutes and unto the ordinances, which I teach you, to do them; that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD, the God of your fathers, giveth you. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

In this next chapter, God commands not to listen to a man who will claim for a new revelations cause he lies and should be killed:
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0513.htm

Deuteronomy Chapter 13

All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

God says that nobody can see him:

Exodus Chapter 33:20

And He said: 'Thou canst not see My face, for man shall not see Me and live.'

In the Torah, God gave the children of Israel laws of living.

To believe means to do. If you are saying that you believe in the American law that means that you do what the American law is telling you to do.

When a child believes his mother it means that if she would tell him not to put his hand in the boiling water then he will obey her.

So it goes that I believe in God who exists, took my ancestors from slavery and gave me laws of life.

No, I haven't witnessed to these great miracles and I haven't lived in those times but that doesn't says that these times weren't in reality, in the same way that you weren't present in the wedding ceremony of your parents but that ceremony took place and there are people who were witnessed to it and in the same way that you don't have any proof that you will come back home in one piece after driving with your car.

I've got a document which was given to my family ancestors at the time that they were living and it escorts the nation of Israel for 3300 years now.

Jerry · Oct 21, 2006

:2party:
Go Ja_cob, It's your birthday!
:2party:

Rosalie · Oct 21, 2006

I don't think it's fair to put this just to the christian god.

There are probably more paranormal experiences associated with the christian/islamic/jewish god, but per capita, it seems that modern pagans have far more. So technically the JCI God is probably lower on the probability ladder than some of the other ones.

I personally believe Gaia exists. Anyone heard of the Gaia Hypothesis? I believe that's true, but with the added effect that the earth also has a consciousness. Where does consciousness come from to begin with? Why do we have it? I'm talking about subjective consciousness, not self recognition of the brain. Our brains are very complex - maybe it's a kind of complexity that attracts consciousness. But I don't believe it "generates" it - just that it's inherent that it pulls it from somewhere else. There is no way that an observer is an emergent property of various carbon compounds and electrical impulses.

I think that if Gods do exist it's because of a product of our consciousness; so many of our consciousness push for the existence of some kind of god that maybe in some sense they do exist. Like, the god inside John's head and the god inside Mary's head are believed in so strongly, they're like little imaginary friends. When each "imaginary friend" subconciously communicates with another, it's like connecting up a bunch of cells, and similiar to Gaia theory, I believe it's possible that it can create a real "life form" of sorts.

As for an afterlife, I do believe that it exists in some shape or form because you can't just "snuff out" consciousness. It is not something that is merely the product of a known structure - we know nothing that can produce that effect. So I think it's more likely that it's a basic building block of the universe, and that we always have to experience something, even if it's at a relatively very slow rate, or we don't always remember afterwards. I'm not sure how we'd have things like memories and thought without our bodies thought, and that's quite scary. What does our consciousness experience? If the universe is conscious, then perhaps it can account for the effects of memory and thought anyway.

Just my beliefs on the matter. Not really looking to have them declared scientific theories or anything, though the "Gods in people's heads network" is certainly a very interesting one.

nort_12345 · Jan 22, 2007

i won't believe in a god or religion until someone presents some facts to me that a god exists

The face of Jacob · Jan 22, 2007

nort_12345 said:
i won't believe in a god or religion until someone presents some facts to me that a god exists

The Torah is the proof that God exists. The Torah is a juridical document.

You didn't attend in the marriage of your grand grand father, and there was no cameras at his time, but you have the document of the marriage, signed by witnesses.

Now, at this point you probably will say to me: "Don't quote to me from the Torah..."

I could answer only this: If you are a buisness man and you sign a deal with another buisness man, then both of you are meeting, both of your lawyers are meeting and the four of you are signing on a contract which tells that: "On this day and in this hour we have met to sign on contract...here are the witnesses and here are their signatures..."

If your partner will violate the agreement and you will prosecute him at the court and if the judge will ask you to give him facts that your partner violated the contract so you will present the facts that he didn't follow the contract that both of you have signed.

How would you feel if the judge will tell you: "Don't quote to me from the contract"?

nort_12345 · Jan 22, 2007

The face of Jacob said:
The Torah is the proof that God exists. The Torah is a juridical document.

You didn't attend in the marriage of your grand grand father, and there was no cameras at his time, but you have the document of the marriage, signed by witnesses.

Now, at this point you probably will say to me: "Don't quote to me from the Torah..."

I could answer only this: If you are a buisness man and you sign a deal with another buisness man, then both of you are meeting, both of your lawyers are meeting and the four of you are signing on a contract which tells that: "On this day and in this hour we have met to sign on contract...here are the witnesses and here are their signatures..."

If your partner will violate the agreement and you will prosecute him at the court and if the judge will ask you to give him facts that your partner violated the contract so you will present the facts that he didn't follow the contract that both of you have signed.

How would you feel if the judge will tell you: "Don't quote to me from the contract"?

that's not proof that a god exists

nort_12345 · Jan 22, 2007

The face of Jacob said:
The Torah is the proof that God exists. The Torah is a juridical document.

You didn't attend in the marriage of your grand grand father, and there was no cameras at his time, but you have the document of the marriage, signed by witnesses.

Now, at this point you probably will say to me: "Don't quote to me from the Torah..."

I could answer only this: If you are a buisness man and you sign a deal with another buisness man, then both of you are meeting, both of your lawyers are meeting and the four of you are signing on a contract which tells that: "On this day and in this hour we have met to sign on contract...here are the witnesses and here are their signatures..."

If your partner will violate the agreement and you will prosecute him at the court and if the judge will ask you to give him facts that your partner violated the contract so you will present the facts that he didn't follow the contract that both of you have signed.

How would you feel if the judge will tell you: "Don't quote to me from the contract"?

there is no way to prove that there is a god. there is also no way to prove that there is no god. but i'm not going to believe in something that can't be proven. but because you can't prove that there is a god, why believe?

how does any religious person know that another religion isn't right? baptists, prodistants, buddhists, jews, muslims, etc.
there is now way to decide who is right and who isn't.

are any of them right? what if atheists are right?

Spartacus FPV · Jan 23, 2007

The face of Jacob said:
The Torah is the proof that God exists. The Torah is a juridical document.

The scriptures from which you get your concept for god also say that he exists.... Total shocker:shock:

Thats called circular reasoning. You must not understand what constitutes proof. 3000 Year old testimony doesn't count.

The face of Jacob · Jan 23, 2007

I already made my points here and also in the religion forum and have nothing else to add.

Spartacus FPV · Jan 23, 2007

The face of Jacob said:
I already made my points here and also in the religion forum and have nothing else to add.

So you're not even going to try and defend your circular logic? Where is the courage of your convictions? Either you're too stubborn to admit that you speak on faith and not fact, or you're a coward. Either way I'm done taking you seriously.

Scriptures aren't proof, and testimony certainly isn't.

The face of Jacob · Jan 23, 2007

Lachean said:
The scriptures from which you get your concept for god also say that he exists

I never said these kind of things as if the proof is that God also say that he exists and it's the proof that you didn't read my words.

Spartacus FPV · Jan 23, 2007

The face of Jacob said:
I never said these kind of things as if the proof is that God also say that he exists and it's the proof that you didn't read my words.

What you mean like these words?

The face of Jacob said:
The Torah is the proof that God exists.

You were saying?...

Do you:
A. Deny that you said this in post #288
B. Concede that you did say it, and yet stand behind its circular logic?
C. Other: Something equally illogical (Please explain)

You must not have seen the Atheist Delusion, you should, its genius.

conserv.pat15 · Jan 23, 2007

How did life start? God is the Creator.

Edify_Always_In_All_Ways · Jan 23, 2007

conserv.pat15 said:
How did life start? God is the Creator.

How do you know?

The Bible?

Has he or she told you personally?

You might want to put a bigger argument than this.

Thinker · Jan 24, 2007

conserv.pat15 said:
How did life start? God is the Creator.

This is probably the most common proposition of believers: I don't understand X,
therefore god.

Well, as we progress and discover the answers to more and more of the "X"
questions, your god of the gaps gets squeezed into an ever shrinking domain.
Perhaps this is why so many believers would stop scientific progress (by touting
non-science like ID, for example). It seems they want to keep some place for
their god to hide.

conserv.pat15 · Jan 24, 2007

Edify_Always_In_All_Ways said:
How do you know?

The Bible?

Has he or she told you personally?

You might want to put a bigger argument than this.

How do you believe life started? Do you think life started from NON-LIVING material? What is your theory?

agaglio · Jan 24, 2007

well lemme ask you something. If god created everything, who created god? Another god. Who created that god? That god has been around forever. Well then, why is it unreasonable for the universe to have existed forever?

-Logic pointed out by Nathaniel Branden.

Does God exist?

Does God exist?

yes

no

not sure

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