should we back Israel militarily?

ColaBear · Jul 19, 2006

jennyb said:
GY SGT i swear, i think i love you.......you are truely a voice of extreme reason.
isnt it incredible to think that any peoples can really believe that wanting a peaceful existence would mean they are weak.......jews, for millenia, have known nothing but, hatred, war, and opression simply because we are what we are,,jews. why? what is it? is it jealousy? or the fact that some think we are 'christ killers'? i have always tried to be the best person i can...since i dont "look" jewish, i have had people who i thought were my friends say the most hair raising things about jews,,,of course these people cease to be my friends when i know how they feel. to think they would want me dead simply because i am jewish just boggles my mind,,,and then of course there are those who say things and i cant keep my mouth shut,,and when they find out i am a jew, they give me the standard line 'oh,well your different'......no,i am not different,and i dont want to be, i am jewish plain and simple..and i would love to understand why others cannot let us live in peace........why do people want to rid the world of us,,,why?

Dear Jenny, not ALL of us want the Jewish people dead. Take heart there are MANY Christians who love and support Israel. Many Christians who are helping in the finances to help Jews migrate back to their Beloved Israel. Many Christians who spend much time writing and calling their Government Officials to cry out and stand with Israel. Many Christians who spend hours on their knees before Jehovah God Almighty on behalf of the Jewish Nation, in obedience to Psalm 122. Many Christians who do NOT believe that God's People were replaced by The Church.
I am one of those that have heard the cry of Isaiah 62 and my heart has been with the Jewish people since I was a child...had to have been the work of The Holy Ghost because there were many around me even at an early age that I KNEW were 'haters of the Jew's...though I never understood why nor accepted the things they tried to speak to me.
As I have grown and matured as a Christian I have learned where the roots for such evil bigotry and ignorance sprang. As a Christian I repented in grievous tears, (tho it was not my personal sin), for ALL those that have gone before me and carried out the evil deeds against the Jews.
Those that call themselves Christian and then speak hate for the Jews are NOT Christians.....I don't care who does not believe me...for the Bible tells us to love one another...that does NOT mean ONLY the ones we choose to love.
The Jews did NOT kill Christ....WRONG thinking but it is the argument fanatics and fools use to hurt those that have never hurt them.......!!!
It was the ROMAN soldiers who struck the blow to those nails... if we must pin point a people....BUT the one who did it was CHRIST HIMSELF...He said, I lay down my life, no man takes it from ME....

Take heart Jenny there are those that love the Jewish Nation...I am one.
ColaBear

If you meet me and forget me...you have lost nothing.
If you meet Jesus Christ and forget Him...you have lost EVERYTHING.

ColaBear · Jul 19, 2006

GySgt said:
The hatred of Jews is probably one of the most common things among cultures. Scholars place the birth of hating Jews back to Egypt when they enslaved them. Of course later they migrated over into Israel. Centuries later, they were conquered by the Romans (like everyone else was). Again they were treated like second class citizens (like everyone else was). Eventually, Christians (my people) slowly became the religion of the Roman Empire and Jews were labeled as the "murderers of Christ." After the "Jewish Revolt," the Roman Empire squashed the rebellion and vanquashed Jews from the land and renamed it Palestinia/Sryiana as an attempt to erase Jews from the land.

After the Roman Empire broke up, the Byzantine Empire owned the land and they ruled it until Cyrus the Great from Iran united the Muslim countries and wrested control of all the MIddle East. Incidentally, Cyrus gave Israel back to the Jews at this time.

Of course then there were the crusades, where Christians from Europe would travel to the "Holy Land" to fight for "God." However, Christian Crusaders would stop by Jewish towns along the way and practice their killing before they got there. At this time, Israel was the center for Christianity, not necessarily Jewish land. Of course, Muslims saw it as Islamic land.

"anti-Semitism" is thought to have gotten it's roots in the 19th century. A time when Arabs and Europeans began to see the Jew as an entire seperate race of people and the spread of a Jewish conspiracy to take over the world was tasteful to every individual that needed a scapegoat for their own failures.

After the crusades and after more time under Muslim control, the Turks wrested control up to WWI.

Of course, in the 20th century we saw a man in Germany use this "anti-Semetic" sentiment and the success of Jews to rally hate. After the WWII and due to gloabl sympathy, Israel was returned to the Jews through UN sanctions and declarations, in which Muslims from Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Syria attacked the very next day. ......And here we are today.

People complain about Israeli retaliation, Jewish assault upon Muslim lands, Jewish terrorism, and other nonesense, but what it comes down to for so many around the world is the traditional killing of Jews. They do not voice against daily Palestinian suicide bombers and they certainly haven't said too much about two kidnapped soldiers. All we hear from our European allies is that "Israel should practice restraint." Alll we hear from the Middle East is that "Israelis are killing our children." No words are spent on condemning Hezbollah, Syria, or Iran aside from the PC empty words which are quickly followed up with a condemnation of Israeli retaliation. In Europe, they merely think as their fore fathers acted and in America they merely think of the path of less resistance.

BRAVO!!! Gunny, you are absolutely correct...as usual I might add....It is exactly how it all began. It is disheartening to know in this day of 'intellect' that this ugly snake keeps rearing its head and being used as an excuse to attempt to wipe a whole Nation of people off the map.

Look at the amount of land that the Arabs occupy...look at Israel...tiny little desert.. NO Arab nation cared that Palestinians did not own that land UNTIL the Jewish Nation was formed and given the rights to occupy the land as THEIRS. From the Roman Empire to the Byzantine Empire to the Ottoman Empire and to the British Empire's occupations, Palestinians were no more than second class citizens and looked down upon even by their own Muslim Caliphates. Now that Jews live there, the Arab Nations are upset. I'm not fooled, though Palestinians should realize how much their friends really care.
Incidentally, isnt it amazing how MEN gave Israel HER own land...Land that had been given to them ...Covenant .....
ColaBear

ALiberalModerate · Jul 19, 2006

ColaBear said:
Dear Jenny, not ALL of us want the Jewish people dead. Take heart there are MANY Christians who love and support Israel. Many Christians who are helping in the finances to help Jews migrate back to their Beloved Israel. Many Christians who spend much time writing and calling their Government Officials to cry out and stand with Israel. Many Christians who spend hours on their knees before Jehovah God Almighty on behalf of the Jewish Nation, in obedience to Psalm 122. Many Christians who do NOT believe that God's People were replaced by The Church……

Oh for crying out loud. Someone dies of starvation in this world every 2 seconds, yet for some reason it seems to be the financial priority of some Christians to put their money into helping Jews migrate to Israel because they have the notion, though many Christians would completely disagree with this notion, that by doing so they are hastening the apocalypse. Religion is the primary reason why Jews, Christians, and Muslims cant seem to live together in peace in the Middle East like they can here. The central obstacle to peace is fundamentalist Christians, ultra-orthodox Jews, and radical Islam putting fundamentalist and at times radical interpretations of the Bible and Koran ahead of conscience and reason. One can seemingly find justification in the Old Testament and Koran for some of the most unconscionable acts imaginable. That is why we are given a conscience and the ability to reason. Is Israel 100% right? Of course not but on balance its more right than wrong. Are the Palestinians wrong about everything? Of course not. If we ever want peace in the Middle East, we must be even handed in our dealings with all parties. Simply standing with Israel no matter what will never bring about peace. When they are in the right, we should stand with them, when their actions are wrong, we should condemn them. Right now Israel is doing what it has to do. Are their current military actions morally right, not really as peace is the only true moral choice, but I don’t think they have any other options right now, and they are doing what they have to do.

My point in all of this, is that it’s not simply black and white, and if we ever really want peace, we cannot simply treat this as though it were.

Hobbes · Jul 19, 2006

GySgt said:
People complain about Israeli retaliation, Jewish assault upon Muslim lands, Jewish terrorism, and other nonesense, but what it comes down to for so many around the world is the traditional killing of Jews. They do not voice against daily Palestinian suicide bombers and they certainly haven't said too much about two kidnapped soldiers. All we hear from our European allies is that "Israel should practice restraint." Alll we hear from the Middle East is that "Israelis are killing our children." No words are spent on condemning Hezbollah, Syria, or Iran aside from the PC empty words which are quickly followed up with a condemnation of Israeli retaliation. In Europe, they merely think as their fore fathers acted and in America they merely think of the path of less resistance.

Such ignorant generalizations about Americans and Europeans are disappointing for all the serious thought you contribute otherwise. Its easy to get caught up in the opinions of extremists any where in the world, but they are just that extremists, not the majority of people. What then is the is the appropriate response? Should criticism of actions taken by Israel or its citizens not be allowed? If you went into specifics and described polls showing 20-30% of Europeans having anti-semitic feelings then I wouldn't disagree, but there were only generalizations. And on top of that, European nations have been gaining larger numbers of Muslim citizens who do feel stronger about Israel. Again none of this was brought up. I go and click on the news from BBC. They seem to describe events unfolding in Lebanon with descriptions of violence of boths sides, again where's this bias you speak of that encompasses "Europeans". Anti-semitism exists, but it is not the prevailing view point. Disagreeing with things Israel does is perfectly possible without being anti-semetic.

DeeJayH · Jul 19, 2006

hipsterdufus said:
WW III might save the midterms for the GOP...:roll:
Come on TOT - we're barely keeping it together in Iraq, and now you want to expand to two more fronts over something that will be over in a week or two.

it sure helped the dems in the last election :roll:

ProudAmerican · Jul 19, 2006

Now, assuming I had a very low risk of being caught, why wouldn't robbing banks, killing my boss, or committing other such crimes be in my own best interest?

first of all, no one ever thinks they will get caugh.

secondly, you wouldnt think those things werent in your own best intrest UNTILL AFTER YOU FIGURED OUT you had made a mistake.

no different with AMerica. we think the things we are doing at the time are in our own best intrest.....but hindsight is always 20/20

you think shooting your boss to gain a position in the company is in your own best intrest......UNTILL you are sitting in prison. then you would certainly rethink your situation.

bizznych · Jul 19, 2006

Nope thats true they were nomadic tribes constantly on the brink of starvation, so much so that cannablism became a ritual kinda like N. Korea. POSTED BY OTO
LIAR! You are so smug about things you hav'nt a clue on.
overall in central Mexico the population fell by almost 95 percent within seventy-five years following the Europeans' first appearance - from more than 25,000,000 people in 1519 to barely 1,300,000 in 1595.
***
2)The familiarity is reinforced by the term the Spanish used to describe their campaign of terror: "pacification." But as horrific as those bloodbaths were in Vietnam, in sheer magnitude they were as nothing compared with what happened on the single island of Hispaniola five hundred years ago: the island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out. And after 1496 the death rate, if anything, accelerated.
Eight million people on Hispaniola,and they were all starving right?http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/History/Pestilence_AH.html,

justone · Jul 19, 2006

SouthernDemocrat said:
Oh for crying out loud. Someone dies of starvation in this world every 2 seconds, yet for some reason it seems to be the financial priority of some Christians to put their money into helping Jews migrate to Israel because they have the notion, though many Christians would completely disagree with this notion, that by doing so they are hastening the apocalypse.

What does it have to do to ColaBears post? Any relevance to her statements?
Most Christians I meet in Church would agree with her post.
Please die of starvation.

SouthernDemocrat said:
Religion is the primary reason why Jews, Christians, and Muslims cant seem to live together in peace in the Middle East like they can here. The central obstacle to peace is fundamentalist Christians, ultra-orthodox Jews, and radical Islam putting fundamentalist and at times radical interpretations of the Bible and Koran ahead of conscience and reason.

Please die. Fundamentalist Christians, ultra-orthodox Jews do not blow schools and buses and peaceful civilians of other religions. If some disturbed nuts do Christian and Jews do not rally for their support as Muslims do for terrorists. Even I as a fundamentalist Christian first ask you politely to die.

SouthernDemocrat said:
Is Israel 100% right?

Who does require Israel or another country to be 100% (what does it mean? – to be an ideal?)

SouthernDemocrat said:
If we ever want peace in the Middle East, we must be even handed in our dealings with all parties.

No we must not. We must apply rules of our civilization, values of our system, and our interests in keeping US as a land of free etc. We must hand weapons to Israel and throw a hot stone to terrorists.

SouthernDemocrat said:
Simply standing with Israel no matter what will never bring about peace. When they are in the right, we should stand with them, when their actions are wrong, we should condemn them.

So far US has not been standing with Israel or any other country no matter what. So far nobody has claimed it should. I always surprised how people can imagine totally unreal situations and discuss them. Cola Bear is standing with Israel on religious grounds, like she stands with Christians, as well she can have disagreements with Jewish or self-proclaimed Christian criminals, thieves and nuts. “No matter what “ she stands with values of our civilization. "No matter'' what israel stands with our civilization. Israel showed respect even when we condemned its action with no reason. It is a civilized western democracy, - and no more, and no less.

SouthernDemocrat said:
Are their current military actions morally right, not really as peace is the only true moral choice,

Peace has been the only choice of Israel. Israel does not need war. Israel wants to be left alone. Israel has demonstrated that many times. Israel is OK with Muslims, Christians, Hindu, Arabs, atheists, etc –they start their own businesses, pray and celebrate. (They say Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote – but I don’t know for sure - I cannot believe easily - in the light of the ongoing conflict.)

Gardener · Jul 19, 2006

Hobbes said:
Such ignorant generalizations about Americans and Europeans are disappointing for all the serious thought you contribute otherwise. Its easy to get caught up in the opinions of extremists any where in the world, but they are just that extremists, not the majority of people. What then is the is the appropriate response? Should criticism of actions taken by Israel or its citizens not be allowed? If you went into specifics and described polls showing 20-30% of Europeans having anti-semitic feelings then I wouldn't disagree, but there were only generalizations. And on top of that, European nations have been gaining larger numbers of Muslim citizens who do feel stronger about Israel. Again none of this was brought up. I go and click on the news from BBC. They seem to describe events unfolding in Lebanon with descriptions of violence of boths sides, again where's this bias you speak of that encompasses "Europeans". Anti-semitism exists, but it is not the prevailing view point. Disagreeing with things Israel does is perfectly possible without being anti-semetic.

Last time I viewed a BBC broadcast, the coverage could have been scripted by the ISM. All it consisted of was a histrionic female talking head going on and on and on about he plight of all the "Innocent" Palestinians. THere was plenty of verbage critical of Israel and not so much as a whisper of criticism for Hamas, or the factth at Palestinians voted them into power. This was hardly balanced and the furthest thing from a "Just the facts, ma'am" approach.

As far as antisemitism is concerned, I would think the simplest way for Europeans to dispel such notions is to start acting the part by showing a little fairness in the matter. With the exception of one poster here, all the Europeans at this particular forum are strongly pro-Palestinain and repeat every known pro-Palestinian talking point -- up to and including thinly veiled genocidal antisemitism. When people voice opinions advocating the destruction of the only place in the world where Jewish people are afforded the same sense of self-determination afforded nearly all other people, all their pathetic protests that they are not antisemitic are mere lies.

Now, obviously those who post here do not represent a statistically signifigant sampling, but if you wish to dispel the notion that Europeans are antisemitic, perhaps a few more people here can start showing that is not true.

justone · Jul 19, 2006

bizznych said:
Nope thats true they were nomadic tribes constantly on the brink of starvation, so much so that cannablism became a ritual kinda like N. Korea. POSTED BY OTO
LIAR! You are so smug about things you hav'nt a clue on.
overall in central Mexico the population fell by almost 95 percent within seventy-five years following the Europeans' first appearance - from more than 25,000,000 people in 1519 to barely 1,300,000 in 1595.

I have noticed that the same people who claim that there was genocide of Indians often claim that there was no Holocaust for Jews.
Also I have noticed their numbers are really funny.
25,000,000- 1,300,000=23,700,000. And how many Europeans arrived in America by 1595? 10,000? Approximately 2,370 Indians for each European to kill. I guess the Indians were staying still in one place. Just imagine 3 ships with 300 fresh rested murderers arrive … and 300 start killing
711, 000 Indians. 300 chasing 711,000 around.

BodiSatva · Jul 19, 2006

Yes ashurbinupal , it is the whole of the point.
Military attacks military or military targets.
Not civilians.

That is the difference.
Like I said, militaries sometimes do attack civilians as the JApanese did in Nanking, etc... but with the USA and Isarael, it is not the policy to do so while it is with Hamas and Hezbollah. I am sorry that you can't differentiate and I am afraid that we are done talking about this for it is a pointless to discuss it further.

Take it easy...-

Trajan Octavian Titus · Jul 19, 2006

ashurbanipal said:
What of our documented use of Al-Qaeda operatives in the Balkan war?

Give me the documentation and not from a conspiracy cite or leftist rag.

What of our several documented and ongoing connections to OBL? For instance, he was receiving kidney treatments at an American military hospital in Dubai in March of 2001. A CIA case officer actually debriefed him while he stayed there. The French and German press reported this widely at the time.

Ya all of what you just said is a complete lie perpetuated by the radical leftist paper "The Guardian" and conspiracy theorists he was never in that hospital and no such meeting ever took place.

teacher · Jul 20, 2006

Napoleon's Nightingale said:
it takes no measures from preventing these trajedies from occuring.

Logically then, you should have no problem with them building a wall, no, a good wall, not the kind of wall the left says as a weak excuse not to build becuase they'll just get over. Not a wall a midget on the low end of a teeter toughter that Oprah could launch. Well actually, he'd go pretty high cause it's Oprah, but they'd have been shot anyway. Are there midget Arabs?

Which begs the question NN. You got any problems with the jews building a wall?

teacher · Jul 20, 2006

cherokee said:
I guess they think Israel should bomb them (Lebland) with gummy bears.

Top Ten things to do with sucked on Gummy Bears.

Thanks bro.

teacher · Jul 20, 2006

So, how about those crazy anti-semites and their wacky sense-o-humor? They're not all Nazi's, I'll give you that, but you can get away with calling them such, we are really talking about here is the stupid Arab's (shut up, I can prove it) brand of "kill the the Jews first before we die" mentality as apposed to the "kill the Jews before we die" mentality of the Nazi's, strange how the white ayrian master race and the swarthy stupid Arabs, so different, both really, really friggin want to kill Jews huh? Am I right? Hell, I'd back the Jews just for being picked on, the underdog, and comeback big, but I'll never pay attention to any utterance from them other than to tell me why it's okay to target children with bombs, they can't, no sane way to deal with them, give it up, shows over, move along, nothing to see here...

teacher · Jul 20, 2006

Re: sound of frogs mating...

Flight of the Valkyries played by a blind guy chained to a piano who has to play for his food and a big Arab they call Mo-winky on the tuba who loves the classics and wants to kill Jews...

isn't that nice?

always makes me want to go charge something,

set the mood here,

upstairs, nice view,

like I said, there's now sane way to talk to these guys,

the truth is self evident,

doesn't that just puff your chest up there when the music builds? Like your on a galloping horse into battle?

yes darling, I'll have a Mai Tai, with an extra umbrella, I'm expecting company around when you get off, here's a little something extra for you, no I didn't mean I was offering to, oh, you want to anyway, and your friend, oh my, I'm on floor 10, no, there's only one room on the 10th floor sweet heart, I'll tell the doorman to expect you, don't mind him, he just needs a shave, see you then, no, wear that, green looks good on you, goes with your eyes,

yea, nice place here, upstairs, service is good, nice music...

little bumbershoots...

bring it.

The Warden.

ashurbanipal · Jul 20, 2006

TOT said:
Give me the documentation and not from a conspiracy cite or leftist rag.

1) This is a rather pernicious request. Anyone of your persuasion merely has to dismiss whatever documentation comes up because, by definition, anyone who reports the use of Al Qaeda operatives in the Balkans war would be into conspiracy theories. That doesn't mean, however, that it's not true.

2) But, we could start with the Wall Street Journal European Edition:

http://www.balkanpeace.org/hed/archive/nov01/hed4304.shtml

We could then move on to Serbianna:

http://www.serbianna.com/columns/mb/035.shtml

And though I'm sure you'll think this site is a left-wing conspiracy site, some of the articles it links to are from quite respectable mainstream news organizations:

http://www.apfn.net/MESSAGEBOARD/01-11-04/discussion.cgi.28.html

TOT said:
Ya all of what you just said is a complete lie perpetuated by the radical leftist paper "The Guardian" and conspiracy theorists he was never in that hospital and no such meeting ever took place.

To my knowledge, the Guardian never reported on it. They may have, I just didn't read about it there. As I said, it was reported in the French and German press. The French newspaper Le Monde reported it shortly after it happened but I don't recall the exact issue number. Interestingly enough, Le Monde is owned by the Carlysle Group.

ashurbanipal · Jul 20, 2006

BodiSatva said:
Yes ashurbinupal , it is the whole of the point.

That's like saying that JFK was killed because of the laws of physics. Of course the terrorists are mad. The issue is why are they mad, and whether they have good cause to be mad.

BodiSatva said:
Military attacks military or military targets. Not civilians.

And yet I and other posters in this thread have provided ample, and unanswered, documentation to the contrary where the IDF is concerned.

TOT said:
Like I said, militaries sometimes do attack civilians as the JApanese did in Nanking, etc... but with the USA and Isarael, it is not the policy to do so

Yes, it is policy to do so. It is also policy to keep that out of the mainstream press here in the U.S., and to some extent in Israel. But it is happening and it will continue to happen.

BodiSatva said:
while it is with Hamas and Hezbollah. I am sorry that you can't differentiate and I am afraid that we are done talking about this for it is a pointless to discuss it further.

Take it easy...-

How manifestly unreasonable of you. So long as people take the attitude that, no matter what evidence is produced, no matter what arguments are made, Israel will be in the right, the fighting will continue. People will keep dying. Nothing will ever be resolved. And all people will eventually come to suffer because of it.

ashurbanipal · Jul 20, 2006

Proud American said:
first of all, no one ever thinks they will get caugh.

1) That's not the issue here--whether I actually get caught or not doesn't matter. If I believe I won't, then it would seem to me to be in my best interests to carry out such a crime. So why don't I?

2) Beyond that, however, I'm sure criminals think they won't get caught out of some pseudo-religious conviction that they're invincible. It's an entirely other thing to examine the matter objectively and guage one's chances. In my case, I think my chances would be pretty good for solid, relevant reasons that I won't go into. Yet, I have no desire to do these things. I have a job, I work hard, and I'm trying my best to make it without having to step on other people. I believe that is the correct way to live. Why would nations, even very powerful ones, be exempt from such a simple ethic?

Proud American said:
secondly, you wouldnt think those things werent in your own best intrest UNTILL AFTER YOU FIGURED OUT you had made a mistake.

How does this argue for your side? How does it argue against mine?

Proud American said:
no different with AMerica. we think the things we are doing at the time are in our own best intrest.....but hindsight is always 20/20

What does this really have to do with the point at hand? Your claim was that countries are justified in prosecuting their own interests, period. My claim is that this is not correct--countries are justified in prosecuting their own interests to an extent, but there are lines that should not be crossed. Those lines exist at the point where one country begins prosecuting their interests at the undue expense of other countries' interests.

Proud American said:
you think shooting your boss to gain a position in the company is in your own best intrest......UNTILL you are sitting in prison. then you would certainly rethink your situation.

Again, this has exactly what to do with the question under discussion?

Trajan Octavian Titus · Jul 20, 2006

ashurbanipal said:
1) This is a rather pernicious request. Anyone of your persuasion merely has to dismiss whatever documentation comes up because, by definition, anyone who reports the use of Al Qaeda operatives in the Balkans war would be into conspiracy theories. That doesn't mean, however, that it's not true.

2) But, we could start with the Wall Street Journal European Edition:

http://www.balkanpeace.org/hed/archive/nov01/hed4304.shtml

We could then move on to Serbianna:

http://www.serbianna.com/columns/mb/035.shtml

And though I'm sure you'll think this site is a left-wing conspiracy site, some of the articles it links to are from quite respectable mainstream news organizations:

http://www.apfn.net/MESSAGEBOARD/01-11-04/discussion.cgi.28.html

Your only reliable source ie the wsj cites the trial testimony of a terrorist as evidence that the CIA was funding al-Qaeda tell me do you have documentation to back that up or just the word of a terrorist like say money transfer records, an order from a higher up or a request from a subordinate, a leak, anything tangible at all would be good, **** the CIA can't even keep a prison secret do you really think they could keep something like the funding of Bin-Laden under their hat? Get real.

To my knowledge, the Guardian never reported on it. They may have, I just didn't read about it there. As I said, it was reported in the French and German press. The French newspaper Le Monde reported it shortly after it happened but I don't recall the exact issue number. Interestingly enough, Le Monde is owned by the Carlysle Group.

Actually it was la Figaro and it was unverified undocumented fantasy from the overactive imagination of a political hack,

Trajan Octavian Titus · Jul 20, 2006

ashurbanipal said:
Yes, it is policy to do so. It is also policy to keep that out of the mainstream press here in the U.S., and to some extent in Israel. But it is happening and it will continue to happen.

Ah-ha the age old "Jewish media conspiracy" wrapped up in a nice new package to make it more palatable to the new left and their newfound political correctness.

Hesbollah places military targets in heavely populated civilian areas and will not allow the civilians to flee southern Lebanon because that is there goal: to get civilians killed so they can use it as propoganda to garner support from useful idiots.

oldreliable67 · Jul 20, 2006

with respect to:

BodiSatva said:
Military attacks military or military targets. Not civilians.

ashurbanipal replied:

ashurbanipal said:
And yet I and other posters in this thread have provided ample, and unanswered, documentation to the contrary where the IDF is concerned.

Have read the majority (but probably not all) of the posts providing that so-called documentation, and I find it quite lacking in credibility.

With respect to:

Originally Posted by TOT
Like I said, militaries sometimes do attack civilians as the JApanese did in Nanking, etc... but with the USA and Isarael, it is not the policy to do so

ashurbanipal replied:

Yes, it is policy to do so. It is also policy to keep that out of the mainstream press here in the U.S., and to some extent in Israel.

What would you offer to support or prove that assertion?

Gibberish · Jul 20, 2006

The House of Representatives overwhelmingly backs Israel in vote:

"The resolution, which was passed on a 410-8 vote, also condemns enemies of the Jewish state."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060720/ap_on_go_co/us_mideast

ashurbanipal · Jul 20, 2006

TOT said:
Ah-ha the age old "Jewish media conspiracy" wrapped up in a nice new package to make it more palatable to the new left and their newfound political correctness.

Huh? It's not a Jewish media conspiracy, or at least not an exclusively Jewish conspiracy. I don't think that the Jews control the news, if that's what you mean (well, at least not in this country. I think they probably control a substantial portion of it in Israel). I think it's just good business for those who own the major news outlets--regardless of whether they're Jewish or not.

TOT said:
Hesbollah places military targets in heavely populated civilian areas and will not allow the civilians to flee southern Lebanon because that is there goal: to get civilians killed so they can use it as propoganda to garner support from useful idiots.

The IDF killing Palestinian civilians has been going on long before the recent invasion of Lebanon.

MSgt · Jul 20, 2006

Hobbes said:
Such ignorant generalizations about Americans and Europeans are disappointing for all the serious thought you contribute otherwise. Its easy to get caught up in the opinions of extremists any where in the world, but they are just that extremists, not the majority of people. What then is the is the appropriate response? Should criticism of actions taken by Israel or its citizens not be allowed? If you went into specifics and described polls showing 20-30% of Europeans having anti-semitic feelings then I wouldn't disagree, but there were only generalizations. And on top of that, European nations have been gaining larger numbers of Muslim citizens who do feel stronger about Israel. Again none of this was brought up. I go and click on the news from BBC. They seem to describe events unfolding in Lebanon with descriptions of violence of boths sides, again where's this bias you speak of that encompasses "Europeans". Anti-semitism exists, but it is not the prevailing view point. Disagreeing with things Israel does is perfectly possible without being anti-semetic.

I never said otherwise.

Unfortunatley, throughout history, extremists and Radicals define civilizations, especially when the civilization embraces their butchers. It is as easy to generalize the Middle East and the core countries of Europe as it is to generalize Christianity in European 16th century.

When generalities meet the defintion, exceptions are useless.

You can criticize anything you want. The problems with people's criticisms regarding anything in the Middle East is that their opinions are largely based on a headline or another politicians opinions. It is not enough to complain about Israeli targetting and not understand what Hezbollah is or the culture in which it is immersed.

Of course, many of our "allies" haven't said a word about Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, or the House of Saud. It is always easier to refrain from antagonizing the enemy for immediate gain. Even the American history is guilty of this.

But as Americans and Europeans are painfully and slowly learning ....determined men will not be appeased away.

You may have seen it today. Representatives of the UN again preached to the world on what to do, carefully staying clear of antagonizing the human monsters in the Middle East, and focused on Israeli bombings. Israel is not the problem. It is not Israel that cannot live in peace. It is not Israel that has terrorist organizations that train for the mission of wiping out an entire civilization. It's extremely cowardly that so many around the world is treating Hezbollah like another country and not for what it is.

Anti-Semitism is as alive today in the core countries of Europe as it was in 1943. They only lack the will or strength to act on it. Don't believe me? Get stationed there and see it for yourself (not that I have been stationed there). Germany has even evolved their racist bigotries - they now choose to look down upon Turks too.

should we back Israel militarily?

should we back Israel militarily?

Yes

No

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