for those against the Iraq war.....

MSgt · May 6, 2006

Billo_Really said:
This war is nothing about freeing the oppressed. There are oppressed all over the world we totally ignore.

Iriemon said:

He shoots, he scores!

(teacher down by 1 going into the final quarter of play)

Click to expand...

:roll: Back to the old comforting sentiment that if we don't help all we should help no one. How noble. I see you are still struggling with that. I guess this is about the time you parade around pictures of Abu-Ghraib abuse...right?

Billo_Really · May 6, 2006

Originally posted by GySgt:
Back to the old comforting sentiment that if we don't help all we should help no one. How noble. I see you are still struggling with that. I guess this is about the time you parade around pictures of Abu-Ghraib abuse...right?

No, it's more like us helping ourselves at the expense of others. As for pictures of Abu Ghraib, "parade" is your word, not mine. I take no enjoyment making that point.

MSgt · May 6, 2006

Iriemon said:
Might makes right? But your statement is incorrect, the response can be more than hurt feelings. It's not just hurt feelings happening in Iraq.

Soooo, it's ok for our troops to shed blood if you agree with it? War is war. It is not up to you to decide...oops....it is up to you. Your representation, the very same generation that protested the Vietnam War, sent us to Iraq. America's fickleness is growing to super human strengths.

Iriemon said:
Is it rationalized cowardice to recognize we are hurting more than helping? Or to withdraw our forces now that they have long ago achieved the objective of invasion?

Or is it rationalized cowardice to maintain an occupation because we are too proud to admit mistakes were made, and because things haven't gone exactly like we expected.

This is called an opinion which is largely based on headlines. It's ignorance. We have an obligation to set up Iraq and a success (which is happening despite your doom and gloom headlines) will benefit everyone except Radical Islam. Yet you choose to hand them victory and set us up for a future protracted war which will shed much more blood.

Iriemon said:
You actually believe that Muslem nations are thinking about purging themselves of Radical Islamists because they are concerned about what we are doing in Iraq? Where is there evidence this is happening? The opposite is happening. Our unjustified action is driving more support to the radical cause.

It's not about what I "think." It's about what I know. We are seeing this in Indonesia, Chad, Bosnia, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia. This is concrete. You are completely wrong in your sentiments. I keep telling you this, yet you find comfort in believing otherwise.

Iriemon said:
This is were the strategy fails. You seem to think by maintaining an occupation of Iraq we are "winning" somehow, and that radical Islamists around the world are being discourage and are giving up the fight.

I said nothing of the sort. I have told you that this is a generational fight spread out in every corner of Islam. Are you aware of what is going on in Chad, Bosnia, Pakistan, Indonesia, India? probably not. You are too focused on Iraq being the "end all be all" of this effort.

Iriemon said:
When people feel threatened, or feel their religion is threatened, then tend to rally behind the more radical elements. I think you said something to that effect youself in an earlier thread. We are creating the perception of a threat, as an agressor. The muslem world is responding in the predictable manner -- rallying behind the radicals.

Now what.

They are responding in the very way they do for anything. Perhaps we should stop killing off their Radical element. Perhaps we should just draw cartoons. Surely, they will act civilized after that. There is no threat in angering people that already hate us. They are determined to hate us and use us for every societal problem they have. Our civilizations are clashing and there is absolutely nothing we can do to stop it. Maybe we should rush to their aid when an earthquake or a tsunami strikes. Maybe we should rush to give foreign aid to "Palestine." Maybe we should build schools and infrastructure for one of their countries. Oh wait, we have and are doing these things - doesn't seem to matter to people that need us as a scapegoat more than they desire peace.

Iriemon said:
Hell, this admin does and you do the exact same thing. Everytime it needs support for its radical ideas, we hear about 9-11 and mushroom clouds and how they all want to get us. Why? Because you, and the president, know that the fear of a threat will rally people around a militaristic program.

The threat is real. Maybe that is why dumb America needs it placed in front of them daily.

Iriemon said:
I would say the same about you. Armed forced occupation has never been successful over time, history shows that. But that is your only answer.

:roll: Study your history.

Iriemon said:
More foolish that blindly following a leadership with demonstated incompetence and with a demonstrated record of being wrong about the ME and Iraq over and over again? Who is being more foolish. The blind leading the blind.

The bline are focused on Iraq as the "end all be all" of this effort. You lack vision and the study to understand the larger issue and the larger threat. You should find comfort in the experts who have conducted the study and can see what is happening.

Iriemon said:
Don't you see that by invading one of their countries for WMDs that didn't exist and all the other "mistakes", and saying we had limited objectives and staying their indefinitely, and kill muslems etc etc. we are giving them the tools to say, with justification, the exact same things about us?

"Mistakes" is an opinion. Draw a cartoon. See what "justifications" they draw upon.

Iriemon said:
So let's do our best to make sure the ALL hate us. That'll win the war on terror.

Radical Islam is said to be 14 to 120 million strong. I wouldn't worry about ******* off a few more. Your implications that they ALL hate us is wrong. This is, yet, another erroneous opinion used to gather strength. Study the region.

Iriemon said:
Should we just turn the debate into an ad homien attack? Is that the basis for your argument?

Hmmm. So an ad hominem "attack" on President Bush offended you? What is with you liberals and your "ad hominem" term anyway?

Iriemon said:
OK. Since Mar 2003, we have seen Iraq go from a stable government to a destabilized civil war were tens of thousands of muslems from Iraq and all over the Middle East are fighting us.

Civil War. Hahahahaha. Study history. Know what a civil war is. You continue to show that you have absolutely no interest in what is going on.

Iriemon said:
We see Iran go from having a moderate president to an anti-American radical who is insistent upon getting a bomb.

A design of the fanatical religious leadership in Iran. Has nothing to do with Iraq.

Iriemon said:
We have seen the Palestinians elect a radical government.

The voted for social change to correct the corruption of the former. Most Palestinians want peace with Israel. Has nothing to do with Iraq.

Iriemon said:
We see anti-American feels growing throughout the Muslem world.

It has always been there and will always be there. Before 9/11, our naive little world had no idea of this region. Now that it is exposed, Americans are erroneously complaining about it growing. Ignorance. Has nothing to with Iraq.

Iriemon said:
That's progress.

I've given you the progress. You have dismissed it for a headline that shows two more dead troops.

MSgt · May 6, 2006

Iriemon said:
So what is your solution GySgt. How is our guerilla war of attrition in Iraq exterminating the "human monsters."

You can talk about mushroom clouds all you want. Everybody understands that. We need a strategy that minimizes the risk of that happening. I know there are some radical elements out there, always have been, always will. What we should do is minimize those groups, not provide reasons for people to support them.

What is your strategy? How is the current strategy accomplishing reducing this risk?

Glad you asked. Here is a solution. After you read it, why don't you show us that you aren't just a negative critic adhering to the liberal agenda and share with us your solution....

1) Root Cause - The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 by Hassan al Banna and the vast majority of terrorists are members, however most Radicals are not. The majority of Islamic Radicals are "the sea from which the terrorists swim" and are revered. The cancer of Radical Islam grows where socio-economic conditions are poor; governments are repressive and unable to provide essential social services, such as providing adequate oversight of their educational system….or have allowed / sanctioned Radical Islamic curricula. Islamic fundamentalism has given an aim and form to the otherwise aimless and formless resentment and anger of the Muslim masses at the forces that have devalued their traditional values and loyalties and, in the final analysis, robbed them of their beliefs, their aspirations, their dignity, and to an increasing extent even their livelihood. Frustrated by the complete inability to exert any discernible degree of control over their immediate circumstances, frustrated adherents of Radical Islam, goaded by Radical Islamic Clerics, will resort to terrorism as the only avenue to effect religious, social, political, and economic change.

2) Short Term Solution - Radical Islam is a precursor to terrorism. It lays the ideological and religious foundation for Islamic-inspired violence and, as such, represents a long-term threat to the national security of the United States of America. The ongoing Global War on Terrorism targets the current generation of terrorists; however, unless the ideology that spawned them is also countered the long-term threat to the U.S. will exponentially grow with time. Our enemies in the “War on Terror” are men who believe, literally, that they are on a mission from God to destroy your civilization and, who regard death as a promotion, are not impressed by our morals and restrictions to remain civil. We must find them; no matter how long it takes, and then kill them. If they surrender, we must accord them their rights under the laws of war and international conventions. But, as we have learned so painfully from all the mindless, left-wing nonsense spouted about the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, we are much better off killing them before they have a chance to surrender. We should not make the mistake of listening to those who warn that ferocity on our part reduces us to the level of the terrorists. That is the argument of the campus, not of the battlefield, and it insults America's service members and the American people. Historically, we have proven, time after time, that we can do a tough, dirty job for our country without any damage to our nation's moral fabric (Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not interfere with American democracy, values or behavior). (Read Peters) So many say that killing terrorists only creates more terrorists. The same critics will tell us that by killing civilians in our attacks simply turn other civilians against us. This is sophomoric nonsense. Civilians who shield the enemies of the West are already anti-Israel or anti-American. But if our strikes against the masters of terror come to seem inevitable, those same civilians will turn against terrorists who try to use them as living shields--as villagers in Afghanistan already have done. The surest way to swell the ranks of terror is to follow the approach we did in the decade before 9/11 and do nothing of substance. Success breeds success. Everybody loves a winner. The cliches exist because they’re true. Al-Qaeda and related terrorist groups separated because they were viewed in the Muslim world as standing up to the West successfully and handing the Great Satan America embarrassing defeats with impunity. Some fanatics will flock to the standard of terror, no matter what we do. But it’s far easier for Islamic societies to purge themselves of terrorists if the terrorists are on the losing end of the global struggle than if they’re allowed to become triumphant heroes to every jobless, unstable teenager in the Middle East and beyond.

3) Long Term Solution - Thus, when dealing with a culture in which only faith and family matter to our enemies, we insist on making war on governments and negotiating with political organizations that are no more than mobs with diplomatic representation. When doing this, we are punching thin air. Note...Some of these are active operations and some are general sentiments of the intel community.

a - Acknowledge the threat posed by Radical Islam.

b - We are not targeting Islam, just the Radical Islamists – we better say so.

c - Support the moderate voices (indirectly).

d - Focus our efforts on the long term enemy = the creation of more Radical Islamists.

e - Garner worldwide support for this effort…..and at least engage in the IO war more aggressively. Counter Al Jazeera and like Radical Islamic media….without appearing to do so.

f - Designate DOS (Department of State) as lead agency against countering Radical Islam.

g - Following recognition of the threat – fund the programs necessary to counter it.

h - Reorganize foreign assistance funding and efforts creating DOS “Regional Directors” that actually control assets = Reorganize DOS along Geographical vice Functional Lines (much like DoD Combatant CDRs).

i - Review Current Foreign Policy Focusing on Taking the Political Ammunition Away From the Radical Extremists.

j - Resolve Israeli / Palestinian and Indian / Pakistani disputes.

k - We must succeed in both Afghanistan and Iraq….and ensure these are perceived as successes in the Muslim world.

l - Counter Radical Islamic Media = Counter Al Jazeera and like Radical Islamic media….without appearing to do so.

m - Reestablish funding for cultural outreach programs cut following end of “Cold War.”

n - Give voice to moderate Islamic leaders (indirectly).

o - Support Programs Dedicated to Providing Educational Reform in Threatened Countries. (The official Saudi newspaper, Ain Al-Yaqeen, described royal expenditures on “education” as “astronomical.” (Mar 2002) They built 1500 mosques, 202 colleges, and 2000 Muslim schools. These were established throughout non-Islamic countries in Europe, North and South America, Australia, and Asia. None in the Middle East.)

p - Governments with strong governmental oversight over the education of their young must be rewarded; likewise those that do not provide such oversight must be punished.

q - AT HOME = Constitutional / Legal Review of activities surrounding fundamentalist religions that pose a domestic threat, – we face a new threat and our legal system is ill equipped to handle it. (Many Americans would rather recognize their freedom to preach hate a spit venom above protecting their own asses from the repercussions of it.)

More problems in the MENA Region....

- The populations within the next 25 years…
Egypt’s population will increase by 38%
Jordan’s by 67%
Syria’s by 58%
Saudi Arabia’s by 94%
Pakistan’s by 69%, and
Israel’s by 39%

- Decreasing Fresh Water Supplies: MENA region faces precipitous decrease in per capita fresh water supply.

- Economic doldrums / disaster: Regional unemployment for ages 15-35 = 40%…and growing. ….mostly males….who can’t afford to get married……...

- No known solutions to these problems, save one = Jihad.

Only democracies have shown agility to deal with such problems. In the absence of answers victims will look for scapegoats. Radical Islamic clerics provide the scapegoat for the problems facing the Arab/Islamic world. "Their problems are the fault of the West, specifically the US." (How many of you out there feed into their blame game?) Either we find a way to support the affected countries in finding their own solutions to these problems or our sons and daughters will be fighting another, protracted fight.

Much of this is happening all over the world and some is not. It will take generations and a multiple of Presidents to fix. Some of this can be happening right now but it is not, because our government is not recognizing what the experts and the military intel world has been preaching for two decades. Our civillian intelligencia lack the study and the tools necessary to deal with this problem - the SOP still reflects the SOP used when we faced another super power. This is inadequate. I've said this before.

MSgt · May 6, 2006

Billo_Really said:
No, it's more like us helping ourselves at the expense of others. As for pictures of Abu Ghraib, "parade" is your word, not mine. I take no enjoyment making that point.

"Helping ourselves" is a true for all nations. Civilizations aren't built and safe guarded without it.

It's a poor point. It was an incident of abuse by civilians in uniform. Nothing more.

teacher · May 6, 2006

Iriemon said:
This war is nothing about freeing the oppressed. There are oppressed all over the world we totally ignore.

Absolutely about freeing the oppressed. Sure, there are oppressed all over the world, but they haven't flow any planes into buildings. And these oppressed are on their way to getting nukes. So we free them, give them power over the direction of their nation, access to education and the free flow of information. Give them the ability to make their lives better, to vote, to have a say in the direction of their lives. The ability to see that it's not America that has been holding them in the stone age all these centuries. Let the women have some say in their society, which tempers the savagery of the brainwashed Islamic fanatical men. And more importantly gives little boys a wide scope on life besides the Koran and a Madrassa, being brainwashed all their lives to understand the only worthy thing in life is to kill Americans. Open your friggin eyes Iriemon and understand the root causes of terrorism. It's poverty and hopelessness, jealousy and misdirected rage. It's not Bush. Time is up. 9/11 showed us that. I understand you'd rather sit at home and pretend everything is gonna be just fine. That's exactly what terrorists want. All your negative bullshit whining counts for nothing. Women in Iraq and Afghanistan now vote. Because of Bush. You gonna tell me that's a bad thing? If we did things your way they'd still be beat with sticks for daring to imagine voting.

Jay R · May 6, 2006

I'll jump in to this thread, what's the score?

Gunny makes some good points, particularly this one:

GySgt said:
Radical Islamic clerics provide the scapegoat for the problems facing the Arab/Islamic world. "Their problems are the fault of the West, specifically the US."

As for this little beauty:

GySgt said:
One...It is a sentiment of "Old Europe" to exonerate themselves from helping their fellow man or from acting when they should by hiding behind a word like "soverieignty." "Soveriegnty" is what allowed Hitler to amass a military and strike out. "Soverienty" is what allowed the Bosnias, Sudans, Kosovos, etc. "Soveriengty" has proven to be deadly to Americans. We should not allow Americans to die or be threatened by men who are hiding behind words like "soveriegnty" or "religion."

Europe does need to pull it's thumb out of it's collective a** and start getting involved in these international arenas as a collective rather than as individual states. It's one of the reasons I support a European nation rather than a further extension of the union. Say what we like about America's international adventures, at least they are not afraid to put boots on the ground to get things done, a more proactive attitude from Europe could be a real boon to confronting some of the world's trouble spots.

PeaceBrother · May 6, 2006

Well, I pretty much give up. I have tried to give an alternative to wars and crap but you guys just seem to shoot them all down. Aparently america is totally uncorrupt and is a liberator of everyone, and the muslims are just out to get us. I guess Humans will just never be happy until everyone on the other side is dead.
My final point is that if the war was initially started to secure WMD's why does everyone say it was started to liberate the people. And furthermore there are way too many nukes left over from the cold war to effectively secure all of them. Going to war is just increasing the odds of one being used. I'm not saying we should not care at all about gathering them up and disarming them, but we should atleast stop building more in the US and stop tweaking them to make them even more powerful. How do you think that makes the countries who think we are the great evil feel. It just makes them want to put a stop to us. I say we disarm the majority of our nukes and set a good example for the rest of the world. We'd still have enough left over to blast anyone into the stoneage but it would be a step in the right direction. Thats my plan I guess. I know someones just gonna quote me and tell me how that empowers terrorists or something but whatever, all I know is that we are in a vicious cycle of violence and I dont think more violence will get us out of it, like most of you suggest. As I said earlier I fear that neither side will be happy till all of the other is dead, and thats just depressing.

Kelzie · May 6, 2006

PeaceBrother said:
Well, I pretty much give up. I have tried to give an alternative to wars and crap but you guys just seem to shoot them all down. Aparently america is totally uncorrupt and is a liberator of everyone, and the muslims are just out to get us. I guess Humans will just never be happy until everyone on the other side is dead.
My final point is that if the war was initially started to secure WMD's why does everyone say it was started to liberate the people. And furthermore there are way too many nukes left over from the cold war to effectively secure all of them. Going to war is just increasing the odds of one being used. I'm not saying we should not care at all about gathering them up and disarming them, but we should atleast stop building more in the US and stop tweaking them to make them even more powerful. How do you think that makes the countries who think we are the great evil feel. It just makes them want to put a stop to us. I say we disarm the majority of our nukes and set a good example for the rest of the world. We'd still have enough left over to blast anyone into the stoneage but it would be a step in the right direction. Thats my plan I guess. I know someones just gonna quote me and tell me how that empowers terrorists or something but whatever, all I know is that we are in a vicious cycle of violence and I dont think more violence will get us out of it, like most of you suggest. As I said earlier I fear that neither side will be happy till all of the other is dead, and thats just depressing.

Nobody's saying the US is perfect. Lord knows we've screwed up before, but at least we are trying. And no, the only reason we went into Iraq wasn't liberation, but this is the real world we live in. Unfortunately not everyone is that concerned with human right's violation in other countries and so these things have to be sold to them.

And nukes? What?

MSgt · May 6, 2006

PeaceBrother said:
Aparently america is totally uncorrupt and is a liberator of everyone...

Well, I wouldn't say all that, but thanks. :ind: :usflag2:

PeaceBrother · May 6, 2006

GySgt said:
Well, I wouldn't say all that, but thanks.

:ws

oke

I was being sarcastic. Maybe someday we will be though. We have a long road to tow, but we'll get there. We'll get there.

:2party:

why all the smileys? :shrug: lighten the mood.

Billo_Really · May 6, 2006

Originally posted by Kelzie:
Nobody's saying the US is perfect. Lord knows we've screwed up before, but at least we are trying. And no, the only reason we went into Iraq wasn't liberation, but this is the real world we live in. Unfortunately not everyone is that concerned with human right's violation in other countries and so these things have to be sold to them.

And nukes? What?

We got no business telling other countries about human rights. Not after all the crap were doing with GITMO, Abu Ghraib and renditions. We won't even agree to an International court because we know we are not innocent of human rights abuse.

MSgt · May 6, 2006

Billo_Really said:
We got no business telling other countries about human rights. Not after all the crap were doing with GITMO, Abu Ghraib and renditions. We won't even agree to an International court because we know we are not innocent of human rights abuse.

Damn, dude. Why do you always have to take this high pedestal stance? With this logic, we have no right helping tsunami victims in Indonesia, because we couldn't respond in a quick enough manner for New Orleans. Chinks in our armor should not restrain us from doing what we know is right.

You know what basic human rights are. And you also know the regions of the earth where it is sorely lacking. You also know a certain region of the earth where such an environment produces desperate killers determined to serve their "god" for salvation. As long as these killers hold us up as a blood offering for their "god" or as a simple scapegoat for their individual and societal failures, they are our business.

Kelzie · May 6, 2006

Billo_Really said:
We got no business telling other countries about human rights. Not after all the crap were doing with GITMO, Abu Ghraib and renditions. We won't even agree to an International court because we know we are not innocent of human rights abuse.

I am completely disgusted with the fact that you could even try to compare the prison "scandals"-they hardly qualify as anything but-with the stoning of homosexuals and the ENSLAVEMENT of women. Oh that's right, you're a guy. What the hell do you care that in other parts of the world the opposite gender is considered property? How progressive of you.

Billo_Really · May 6, 2006

Originally posted by Kelzie:
I am completely disgusted with the fact that you could even try to compare the prison "scandals"-they hardly qualify as anything but-with the stoning of homosexuals and the ENSLAVEMENT of women. Oh that's right, you're a guy. What the hell do you care that in other parts of the world the opposite gender is considered property? How progressive of you.

This goes way beyond a mere prison scandal. The Iraqi government is doing the same things Hussein did with their roving death squads. Weve locked up 60,000 people. Of which, many do not have charges against them. $8.8 billion dollars of their oil money is unaccounted for. We've got depleted uranium all over the place. Why don't you find out what the VA has said recently about the affects of depleted uranium?

Yeah, you really care about their women. And you could care less that we are killing all their husbands, children and families with our 500 pounders. Why are we still conducting air raids in that country? Why is there still an air war going on? Why did we bomb the crap out of them and turn around and tell the rest of the world we were just doing no-fly zone enforcement?

You got answers, I'm all ears.

Kelzie · May 6, 2006

Billo_Really said:
This goes way beyond a mere prison scandal. The Iraqi government is doing the same things Hussein did with their roving death squads. Weve locked up 60,000 people. Of which, many do not have charges against them. $8.8 billion dollars of their oil money is unaccounted for. We've got depleted uranium all over the place. Why don't you find out what the VA has said recently about the affects of depleted uranium?.

Yes. I'm sure some locked up people and lost money is the exact same thing as the subjegation of half the population. In your world.

Billo_Really said:
Yeah, you really care about their women. And you could care less that we are killing all their husbands, children and families with our 500 pounders. Why are we still conducting air raids in that country? Why is there still an air war going on? Why did we bomb the crap out of them and turn around and tell the rest of the world we were just doing no-fly zone enforcement?

You got answers, I'm all ears.

We're killing all of them? You seem to have us confused with the insurgents.

MSgt · May 6, 2006

Billo_Really said:
This goes way beyond a mere prison scandal. The Iraqi government is doing the same things Hussein did with their roving death squads. Weve locked up 60,000 people. Of which, many do not have charges against them. $8.8 billion dollars of their oil money is unaccounted for. We've got depleted uranium all over the place. Why don't you find out what the VA has said recently about the affects of depleted uranium?

Yeah, you really care about their women. And you could care less that we are killing all their husbands, children and families with our 500 pounders. Why are we still conducting air raids in that country? Why is there still an air war going on? Why did we bomb the crap out of them and turn around and tell the rest of the world we were just doing no-fly zone enforcement?

You got answers, I'm all ears.

Well, now this just isn't true. All of the above innuendos and twists have been brought up repeatedly and I have addresed it repeatedly. Your ears are very much closed.

Billo_Really · May 6, 2006

Originally posted by GySgt:
Damn, dude. Why do you always have to take this high pedestal stance? With this logic, we have no right helping tsunami victims in Indonesia, because we couldn't respond in a quick enough manner for New Orleans. Chinks in our armor should not restrain us from doing what we know is right.

You know what basic human rights are. And you also know the regions of the earth where it is sorely lacking. You also know a certain region of the earth where such an environment produces desperate killers determined to serve their "god" for salvation. As long as these killers hold us up as a blood offering for their "god" or as a simple scapegoat for their individual and societal failures, they are our business.

We should be in Darfur, not Iraq. We don't need to be in any country in order to exert our will. Anywhere one of our aircraft carriers go, people get the message.

I'm just pissed off because I can see the future. The future is this war is going to have an impact on our economy. What it has done to our national debt is scary. No one seems to be talking about how grave this situation is. We have gotten ourselves into a situation that we cannot get out of without help from other nations. We now cannot pay this debt off by ourselves. And this war is just exacerbating the problem.

No body can see it now. But it's coming. And it's going to hit Wall Street like a tsunami.

Billo_Really · May 7, 2006

Originally posted by GySgt:
Well, now this just isn't true. All of the above innuendos and twists have been brought up repeatedly and I have addresed it repeatedly. Your ears are very much closed.

What do you expect me to think when I see something like this?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1669640,00.html

MSgt · May 7, 2006

Billo_Really said:
We should be in Darfur, not Iraq. We don't need to be in any country in order to exert our will. Anywhere one of our aircraft carriers go, people get the message.

I'm just pissed off because I can see the future. The future is this war is going to have an impact on our economy. What it has done to our national debt is scary. No one seems to be talking about how grave this situation is. We have gotten ourselves into a situation that we cannot get out of without help from other nations. We now cannot pay this debt off by ourselves. And this war is just exacerbating the problem.

No body can see it now. But it's coming. And it's going to hit Wall Street like a tsunami.

If we were in Darfur, people would say we should be somewhere else. Peopple weren't concerned in the least about Durfur before Iraq. Now it is used to grandstand.

Radical Islam is real. The threat is real. If Iraq hadn't happened, we would just have to deal with it later. We didn't get ourselves into anything. This is their fight and we were chosen as their enemy, because we stand by our ally despite their passed down racisms and bigotries towards them. The Middle East must change. Iraq or Syria was the only option. We chose to rid ourselves of Saddam.

Billo_Really · May 7, 2006

Originally posted by Kelzie:
Yes. I'm sure some locked up people and lost money is the exact same thing as the subjegation of half the population. In your world.

There still subjugated, didn't you read their Constitution?

Originally posted by Kelzie:
We're killing all of them? You seem to have us confused with the insurgents.

Insurgents? You must be talking about Iraqis resisting the forced occupation of their country by a foreign power.

MSgt · May 7, 2006

Billo_Really said:
What do you expect me to think when I see something like this?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1669640,00.html

I expect you to do what all Americans do....read the headline and concrete themselves into an opinion. I already told you about this. It is a military tactic to soften the invasion. This article is hardly fact anyway. The very first part clearly states that THE General of the Air Force appeared to have stated.......

You haven't heard too much about this since have you? :roll:

Billo_Really · May 7, 2006

Originally posted by GySgt:
If we were in Darfur, people would say we should be somewhere else. Peopple weren't concerned in the least about Durfur before Iraq. Now it is used to grandstand.

Radical Islam is real. The threat is real. If Iraq hadn't happened, we would just have to deal with it later. We didn't get ourselves into anything. This is their fight and we were chosen as their enemy, because we stand by our ally despite their passed down racisms and bigotries towards them. The Middle East must change. Iraq or Syria was the only option. We chose to rid ourselves of Saddam.

Israel has shown they are more than capable of defending themselves. And there isn't an army in the world willing to pick a fight with us. We could have gotten rid of Saddam the old fashioned way, with our covert ops and the CIA. We did it in South America.

MSgt · May 7, 2006

Billo_Really said:
Israel has shown they are more than capable of defending themselves. And there isn't an army in the world willing to pick a fight with us. We could have gotten rid of Saddam the old fashioned way, with our covert ops and the CIA. We did it in South America.

But I thought what we did in South America was "evil?"

Just because an ally can take care of themselves does not mean that we turn our backs on them, because a terroist wrote a letter to explain why the detruction and death of civillians for his "god" is justified. I wonder how his "god" feels about the thousands of Muslims that his movement is murdering in Iraq and so many other places around the islamic world.

The Middle East is not South America. The entire Regime had to go. This included his son's, generals, and political hierarchy.

Kelzie · May 7, 2006

Billo_Really said:
There still subjugated, didn't you read their Constitution?

I've seen parts. It's a damn shame and bullshit, if I do say so. The fact still remains that the people are still better of choosing their government. People are always better off in a democracy.

Billo_Really said:
Insurgents? You must be talking about Iraqis resisting the forced occupation of their country by a foreign power.

Bah. The vast majority of Iraqis support the democracy that has been given to them. Why don't you ever talk about them?

for those against the Iraq war.....

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