Racism, bigotry, sexism and selfishness lost the election.

Jack Hays said:

The contradiction appears when the "life is sacred" argument is offered.

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Then you have failed to understand. It is not that life is sacred. It is "innocent life should be protected". The foetus is innocent of wrongdoing, and therefore its life ought to be protected. The guilty murderer is NOT innocent of wrongdoing, so his life is fair to take. That's the argument anyway.

Do not be limited by the foolish shallow understanding of those who offer the opposing view. Recalibrate that intelligently and then proceed to deal with that (now vastly superior) recalibrated argument.

Earlier, when I said that it is hypocrisy for those who decry the killing of innocent unborn foetuses to be so callous of their fellow men and women of colour, I was not talking about criminals. I was talking about the rampant racism that persists to this day and which sees cops killing men of colour too quickly, amongst other things. Why is it that we don't see an overwhelming number of white people protesting such abuse ? Why don't we see an overwhelming number of in-service and retired cops protesting this abuse ?

Nap said:

We can both agree that slavery was absolutely terrible, so my question to you is if you were alive at the time of slavery could you vote for someone held a prochoice stance on it?

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The pro life debate is not as clear cut as the slavery question, no matter how cleverly you attempt to cast it in the most volatile terms possible.

Nap said:

We are talking about the rights of a human being, abortion is more complicated due to the rights of the mother so it is not quite an apples to apples comparison and hinges on when you feel the child has a right to live. For someone that is pro choice the comparison sounds ludicrous, but to someone that is prolife it is the closest thing to compare to.

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Once again, make your prolife argument to those who are prochoice and considering abortion (many are prochoice and against abortion). Then, like the other guy in this thread whose 16 year old mother CHOSE to keep him instead of going for an abortion like her dad wanted her to, they may keep the child.

Again, this is not the gment's business. Again, don't make the gment play less than god.

Nap said:

anyone that is passionate about the pro life stance there is no argument that could convince them against it (at least the vast majority of prolifers I know, myself included)

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I know. Fools who cannot think will hold onto their dismantled beliefs instead of developing the skills to think and then reexamining their positions. They don't have integrity, they are lazy, and this is easier.

The left is considerate, but no longer politically correct to the point of absurdity. We will now call a a spade a spade, and a butthead a butthead. We have learned something from the right. The paradigm has indeed shifted. Took it long enough.

Bobbaker said:

Then you have failed to understand. It is not that life is sacred. It is "innocent life should be protected". The foetus is innocent of wrongdoing, and therefore its life is sacred. The guilty murderer is NOT innocent of wrongdoing, so his life is worth taking.

Do not be limited by the foolish shallow understanding of those who offer the opposing view. Recalibrate that intelligently and then proceed to deal with that (now vastly superior) recalibrated argument.

Earlier, when I said that it is hypocrisy for those who decry the killing of innocent unborn foetuses to be so callous of their fellow men and women of colour, I was not talking about criminals. I was talking about the rampant racism that persists to this day and which sees cops killing men of colour too quickly, amongst other things.

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I don't think I've ever heard a pro-life argument only in favor of protecting fetuses of a particular race, so it seems racism is absent from that end of the discussion. As for your last paragraph, the question of police actions regarding people of color is independent of the question of life.

Jack Hays said:

I don't think I've ever heard a pro-life argument only in favor of protecting fetuses of a particular race, so it seems racism is absent from that end of the discussion. As for your last paragraph, the question of police actions regarding people of color is independent of the question of life.

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Just because you have not conceived of an angle doesn't mean it doesn't apply.

Anyway, scroll upwards and you'll see my comprehensive pro choice argument. That is sufficient to carry the day for now.

Jack Hays said:

I don't think I've ever heard a pro-life argument only in favor of protecting fetuses of a particular race, so it seems racism is absent from that end of the discussion. As for your last paragraph, the question of police actions regarding people of color is independent of the question of life.

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I understand it isn't as clear cut and even stated that in the original post.

As for the prochoice argument, if we use your own logic that failing to vote Hillary enables Trump thus making you just as guilty and then does that not also apply to prochoice? That would seem to be quite the double standard in my opinion.

In regards to the cop violence and white people comment. I think that is largely a culture issue. More white people are shot by cops every year but you won't see it on the news because they know white people in general are going to almost instantly side with the cop and it won't be a national story. If white people don't protest other white people getting shot by cops it isn't exactly racist to see them not come out in droves when it is someone of a different race. We can all agree that racism is disgusting and that there is a problem with racial bias in regards to law enforcement. My fear is that the growing violence against cops is only going to make things worse. When cops see on the news people chanting to kill cops it will only put them more on edge and lead to more violence creating a vicious cycle .

Bobbaker said:

Just because you have not conceived of an angle doesn't mean it doesn't apply.

Anyway, scroll upwards and you'll see my comprehensive pro choice argument. That is sufficient to carry the day for now.

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I'm glad you are so satisfied with your argument.

Nap said:

I understand it isn't as clear cut and even stated that in the original post.

As for the prochoice argument, if we use your own logic that failing to vote Hillary enables Trump thus making you just as guilty and then does that not also apply to prochoice? That would seem to be quite the double standard in my opinion.

In regards to the cop violence and white people comment. I think that is largely a culture issue. More white people are shot by cops every year but you won't see it on the news because they know white people in general are going to almost instantly side with the cop and it won't be a national story. If white people don't protest other white people getting shot by cops it isn't exactly racist to see them not come out in droves when it is someone of a different race. We can all agree that racism is disgusting and that there is a problem with racial bias in regards to law enforcement. My fear is that the growing violence against cops is only going to make things worse. When cops see on the news people chanting to kill cops it will only put them more on edge and lead to more violence creating a vicious cycle .

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You have me confused with someone else. I voted for neither Clinton nor Trump.

Nap said:

I understand it isn't as clear cut and even stated that in the original post.

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Which was precisely my point that the decision itself should be left to the individual and not the state. Because if it was crystal clear, we could decide.

And I said that only ONE of the three valid angles were not clear cut.

Nap said:

As for the prochoice argument, if we use your own logic that failing to vote Hillary enables Trump thus making you just as guilty and then does that not also apply to prochoice? That would seem to be quite the double standard in my opinion.

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I voted Hillary and advised others to do the same throughout.

And yes I agree that Hillary would be responsible for abortions carried out under a pro choice environment. But she can't be blamed because she's doing what god is doing (something that jack will not acknowledge). Scroll upwards and find the post where I deal with this exact same question in florid detail. It is something you would not have encountered before I suspect.

Nap said:

If white people don't protest other white people getting shot by cops it isn't exactly racist to see them not come out in droves when it is someone of a different race.

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They are not being shot unfairly enough frequently enough to the point where it has become expected. Hence no protests.

Nap said:

We can all agree that racism is disgusting and that there is a problem with racial bias in regards to law enforcement.

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You have just agreed that cops are racist. That means, black people will suffer unjustly, by the guys with guns, backup and (usually) the law on their side.

This is why you see white officers trained in martial arts make 4 rapid shots to the torso at point blank range at an unarmed black man, instead of 1 or two shots to the legs or the arms. They know they can get away with it.

Or a couple of shots to kill someone running away from them, rather than towards them with a weapon.

Nap said:

My fear is that the growing violence against cops is only going to make things worse. When cops see on the news people chanting to kill cops it will only put them more on edge and lead to more violence creating a vicious cycle .

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If this puts them on edge in the way that you've described, they are certainly not professional enough and well trained enough to work in law enforcement.

Jack Hays said:

You have me confused with someone else. I voted for neither Clinton nor Trump.

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That was directed towards Bob. I'm pretty much in same boat as you as someone who refused to vote for either candidate.

Bobbaker said:

Which was precisely my point that the decision itself should be left to the individual and not the state. Because if it was crystal clear, we could decide.

And I said that only ONE of the three valid angles were not clear cut.



I voted Hillary and advised others to do the same throughout.

And yes I agree that Hillary would be responsible for abortions carried out under a pro choice environment. But she can't be blamed because she's doing what god is doing (something that jack will not acknowledge). Scroll upwards and find the post where I deal with this exact same question in florid detail. It is something you would not have encountered before I suspect.




They are not being shot unfairly enough frequently enough to the point where it has become expected. Hence no protests.



You have just agreed that cops are racist. That means, black people will suffer unjustly, by the guys with guns, backup and (usually) the law on their side.

This is why you see white officers trained in martial arts make 4 rapid shots to the torso at point blank range at an unarmed black man, instead of 1 or two shots to the legs or the arms. They know they can get away with it.

Or a couple of shots to kill someone running away from them, rather than towards them with a weapon.



If this puts them on edge in the way that you've described, they are certainly not professional enough and well trained enough to work in law enforcement.

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I never agreed that cops are racists. There is a slight difference in racial bias and racists.

You do realize police are trained to shoot for the torso. The whole shoot for the arm/leg thing is a ridiculous fantasy. I don't think you understand how difficult that would be.

Nap said:

I never agreed that cops are racists. There is a slight difference in racial bias and racists.

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That "slight difference" that you fantasize about gains outsized proportions when a bullet is backing it up.
So you see, CONTEXT is everything.

Nap said:

You do realize police are trained to shoot for the torso. The whole shoot for the arm/leg thing is a ridiculous fantasy. I don't think you understand how difficult that would be.

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Not at point blank range. And not when the sheriff is the one wielding the weapon.

Listen buddy, unlike you, a few hours at the shooting range is NOT what cops go through. They are trained to fire accurately while lying on the ground, while running, with their non dominant hand (and while running), while wounded, shoot to distract, shoot while moving in one direction with the bad guy moving in the other. By training, i mean DRILLING.

They can easily shoot arms and legs gosh buddy if you can hit the torso you can easily hit the legs. Even a child can understand this.

Nap said:

That was directed towards Bob. I'm pretty much in same boat as you as someone who refused to vote for either candidate.

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Another Trump voter.