Powerful Ad

AdamT said:

It's funny, but Republicans talk about cap and trade as if it's an insane idea (except five years ago when Romney supported it), and I don't think one of them realizes that we already have a very effective cap and trade program to address the ozone/cfc problem.

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Conservative Republicans don't like Romney, he's just the lesser of two evils.

And if we want jobs, we have to let corporations pollute more.

Arbo said:

Well, let's just tax the rich, as more money to the feds will solve this issue. Just like it does every other one. Right?

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I didn't say that was the answer.

Though I find it amusing the wealthiest who make all their earnings off everyone else complain so much about giving some back. It's not like they'll miss a meal over being a little more fair by paying their employees better or stop hiding taxable income overseas like a certain Presidential candidate.

Ah, a federalist. Very well.

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Again, you put your words in other people mouths. You condemn the Feds to the extreme as useless and I merely pointed out that most of the civil authorities are not as efficient as we'd like.

grip said:

Though I find it amusing the wealthiest who make all their earnings off everyone else complain so much about giving some back. It's not like they'll miss a meal over being a little more fair by paying their employees better or stop hiding taxable income overseas like a certain Presidential candidate.

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Oh wait, I thought I was reading DP.

It seems I clicked something and ended up on the DNC website.

Middleground said:

I despise most election ads, but I will say that this one is perhaps the most powerful one I have even seen. It has saddened me that both candidates couldn't care less about the topic of climate change in this election, but I have yet to see Obama make light of this important issue.

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I thought the embedded "Take action at Climate Silence.org" midway was subtle. :roll:

What a ridiculous ad.

The "We are doomed" crowd needs to come up something better in the way of a policy than "no no no"

joko104 said:

I've often pointed out that Obama totally broke his campaign promise about stopping the oceans rising - just like every other promise he made.

Yes, Obama's broken 2008 promises should be the #1 campaign issue, you're right.

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I have asked you this before How is this possible? And I will bet you this is not what he said but that the Cons are once again taking it out of context. From what I have heard he merely stated that he was going to do things to protect our shorelines from rising ocean levels. This is not the same thing.

mak2 said:

He knows his base, his base does not believe (read does not want to beleive) in global warming or man's contribution to it. I personally don't know if man contributes to it or not, but neither do they. Until the truth is know I believe we should be good stewards of the Earth and keep it as clean as possible. I suspect their motivation for this attitude is they want to continue to drive SUV's and supply our enemy with funds per oil money so they can keep the wars going, thereby funding the Military industrial complex, kinda sounds paranoid, don't it.

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I do not want to get into an argument about this with you, but there is amble evidence that we are the major cause. There are currently over 27 industrial nations actively studying it. WHy would they do that if they did not believe we were a cause. The signers of the Kyoto accords beleive it because that is what the accords are about. hell even poor countries especially in Africa believe it.

The visual evidence is overwhelming and the data is massive. it just takes effort to look it up. Just saying

Verax said:

You're a climate change denier, you cannot be taken seriously. Many intelligent people have spent their entire lives researching these subjects, brilliant people all over the world. Yet some guy on a forum thinks he knows better just because he thought about it for a couple minutes? Not to mention you throw in some bs from the bible to "strengthen" your argument, lol.

You can put your head in the sand and pretend nothing is happening, or you can work with those pesky liberals to fix the problems. I know its easier to just forget about this stuff but some of us are real men that are not afraid to stand up and fight for our country.

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I'm not a climate change denier... I'm a fan of actual facts... and the facts do not prove climate change exists...

Many intelligent people have spent their lives researching this, and come up with conclusions that lean each way on the issue... you chose to side with one conclusion... I stay away from people's conclusions and make my own based off the relevant data... and the data doesn't prove anything...

I myself, as someone with a 142 IQ and has taken multiple environmental science courses at Harvard think, well, hey... you know what... I am just one of those people you're referring to... as the intelligent people who have spent time researching this... I have to say, from all of the studies I have seen, the ones that suggest climate change is a fact are based on personal opinions, but the ones based on empiric data suggest there hasn't been a clear and exponentially increasing change coinciding with industrialization... It's just not there...

The weather patterns today are the same as weather patterns have been as far back as recorded memory goes...

I didn't suggest the bible quote was right because it was written by god... I suggested its an age old tested fable...

If you build in the sand it gets washed away, if you build on the rock it has firm ground to stand on... its as simple as that...

Humans consistently build delicate structures closer to the water... fill in land made of silt along the water's edge... and then cry foul when a storm surge comes in and wipes them out...

That's not a sign of anything other than human encroachment into nature, and nature winning the battle...

The weather of this recent storm matches nearly identical with The Perfect Storm of 1991... 20 years ago...

That's called cyclical weather... not increasing... you can't name a storm between then and now which fit that same pattern... 20 years apart...

Again... the NYC area faces a category 3 storm once every 75 years statistically... it's been 74... and this storm was only a category 1... so nothing indicates that the pattern is decreasing in length...



That's called data... the data... does not show a pattern of increasing storms...

In fact... the data... shows that there were 7 hurricanes which hit the NYC area between 1850 and 1908 (58yrs), the year the Model T Ford hit production lines... since 1908 the data showed 7 hurricanes hit NYC, we have now had an 8th in the 104 years... so please, show me how the increase in automobiles producing greenhouse gas emisions has lead to increasingly intensive weather pattern....

Again... you cannot be taken seriously by pointing to a cloud and going look there's global warming... Show me the proof.... this hurricane is not proof... it's a solitary data point on a chart which has had NUMEROUS category 1 hurricanes in October... over the last 200+ years... without any sign of increase since industrialization has increased...

Arbo said:

Oh wait, I thought I was reading DP.

It seems I clicked something and ended up on the DNC website.

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LoL.... Believe it or not I ran a small business and didn't appreciate the gov taking 39% of my profit. I think they're too big, wasteful, inefficient and out of control and yet without them to balance out the equation corporations would stop at no ethical barriers to abuse people for ever increasing bottom lines. As much as gov is out of control, big corporations are even worse and far more abusive.

They make me sick with their phony attempt to appear PC with there asking money for charities when you make a purchase. I just spent my hard earned, dwindling funds with them and they (mega billion profiteers) dare ask me for more to improve their image and get a tax write off, what hypocrisy! Why don't they simply give directly to charity from the profits they make off us or even give us a price break as a charitable act? Because they're sneaky jerks.

grip said:

Hurricanes or super storms in the heavily populated northeast are not that ordinary or common. The Feds help is better than nothing, no matter how much it's not what's always expected. You do know that Feds are just average people hired too work?

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The are in the NY area when they are over 800 miles in diameter. According to all the stuff I have read the last time the upper east coast got hit with a major storm (200 miles) was over 50 years ago.

Looking at one piece or a couple of pieces and saying it ain't so is MYOPTIC. You have to look at the whole thing at the same time over a long period of time.

The data and visual evidence exists, the majority of the industrialized world and many poor countries agree and once again the US is bringing up the rear. or is it that is where the GW deniers are looking?

grip said:

As much as gov is out of control, big corporations are even worse and far more abusive.

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Corporations, ie. private business, do not have the power and force of the law... Government does.

IndepCentristMA said:

I'm not a climate change denier... I'm a fan of actual facts... and the facts do not prove climate change exists...

Many intelligent people have spent their lives researching this, and come up with conclusions that lean each way on the issue... you chose to side with one conclusion... I stay away from people's conclusions and make my own based off the relevant data... and the data doesn't prove anything...

I myself, as someone with a 142 IQ and has taken multiple environmental science courses at Harvard think, well, hey... you know what... I am just one of those people you're referring to... as the intelligent people who have spent time researching this... I have to say, from all of the studies I have seen, the ones that suggest climate change is a fact are based on personal opinions, but the ones based on empiric data suggest there hasn't been a clear and exponentially increasing change coinciding with industrialization... It's just not there...

The weather patterns today are the same as weather patterns have been as far back as recorded memory goes...

I didn't suggest the bible quote was right because it was written by god... I suggested its an age old tested fable...

If you build in the sand it gets washed away, if you build on the rock it has firm ground to stand on... its as simple as that...

Humans consistently build delicate structures closer to the water... fill in land made of silt along the water's edge... and then cry foul when a storm surge comes in and wipes them out...

That's not a sign of anything other than human encroachment into nature, and nature winning the battle...

The weather of this recent storm matches nearly identical with The Perfect Storm of 1991... 20 years ago...

That's called cyclical weather... not increasing... you can't name a storm between then and now which fit that same pattern... 20 years apart...

Again... the NYC area faces a category 3 storm once every 75 years statistically... it's been 74... and this storm was only a category 1... so nothing indicates that the pattern is decreasing in length...

That's called data... the data... does not show a pattern of increasing storms...

In fact... the data... shows that there were 7 hurricanes which hit the NYC area between 1850 and 1908 (58yrs), the year the Model T Ford hit production lines... since 1908 the data showed 7 hurricanes hit NYC, we have now had an 8th in the 104 years... so please, show me how the increase in automobiles producing greenhouse gas emisions has lead to increasingly intensive weather pattern....

Again... you cannot be taken seriously by pointing to a cloud and going look there's global warming... Show me the proof.... this hurricane is not proof... it's a solitary data point on a chart which has had NUMEROUS category 1 hurricanes in October... over the last 200+ years... without any sign of increase since industrialization has increased...

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I've lived in Florida for 45 yrs and when we went through the fires of 1998 that burned 1/2 million acres and the 6 hurricanes of 2004-05 I didn't need anyone to tell me things have changed. Common sense out weighs technical gibberish.

Yeah, great ad. It makes me realize now that if Obama was president, a hurricane of this magnitude would not have occurred.

grip said:

I've lived in Florida for 45 yrs and when we went through the fires of 1998 that burned 1/2 million acres and the 6 hurricanes of 2004-05 I didn't need anyone to tell me things have changed. Common sense out weighs technical gibberish.

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Ah, personal experience tied together with the normal faults of the human brain and memory outweigh actual scientific data. Strange things are afoot at the Circle K, indeed.

Arbo said:

Corporations, ie. private business, do not have the power and force of the law... Government does.

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Corporations, usually ran by a board of wealthy (greedy) shareholders typically buy (influence) politicians like a kid buys candy. More than one elected official owes their alliance to at least several deep pocket contributors. Whom also fund studies, provide gov contracts, get bailout funds, own lobbyists, benefit from pork, run financial institutions, on and on. Big money and gov are so intertwined you can't separate them anymore.

Republic Now! said:

Yeah, great ad. It makes me realize now that if Obama was president, a hurricane of this magnitude would not have occurred.

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..........

grip said:

Corporations, usually ran by a board of wealthy (greedy) shareholders typically buy (influence) politicians like a kid buys candy. More than one elected official owes their alliance to at least several deep pocket contributors. Whom also fund studies, provide gov contracts, get bailout funds, own lobbyists, benefit from pork, run financial institutions, on and on. Big money and gov are so intertwined you can't separate them anymore.

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And in the end, it is still GOVERNMENT that has the force of the gun. Can't seem to escape that reality.

grip said:

Corporations, usually ran by a board of wealthy (greedy) shareholders typically buy (influence) politicians like a kid buys candy. More than one elected official owes their alliance to at least several deep pocket contributors. Whom also fund studies, provide gov contracts, get bailout funds, own lobbyists, benefit from pork, run financial institutions, on and on. Big money and gov are so intertwined you can't separate them anymore.

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So the answer, of course, is to make the government as big and as powerful as possible because this will somehow limit the corporations ability to buy influence?

The Democratic Party should make a 60 second TV spot using much of this.

Arbo said:

Ah, personal experience tied together with the normal faults of the human brain and memory outweigh actual scientific data. Strange things are afoot at the Circle K, indeed.

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Yeah, I knew a guy who read all about fishing and was a technical genius. Funny thing was all I ever did was actually fish and I caught them all day long, while he basically spent his whole day fouling up his equipment. Experience, don't leave home without it.

Arbo said:

Ah, personal experience tied together with the normal faults of the human brain and memory outweigh actual scientific data. Strange things are afoot at the Circle K, indeed.

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Add to that 99% of climate scientists believe that not only is climate change real, but it's most likely cause by CO2 emissions. Not sure about you, but for me, that is all I need to know it's real.

Republic Now! said:

So the answer, of course, is to make the government as big and as powerful as possible because this will somehow limit the corporations ability to buy influence?

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If you bother to read any of my other posts in this thread you'll see that's exactly what I said, NOT!

I said to reduce both and give POWER to the people, man.

Middleground said:

Add to that 99% of climate scientists believe that not only is climate change real, but it's most likely cause by CO2 emissions. Not sure about you, but for me, that is all I need to know it's real.

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I was going to give a decent reply to this, then I realized your Canadian.

Climate change is very real, in fact it has been going on since before man got here. Remember a little thing called the Ice Age? It happens, and we cannot change the FACT that the worlds climate changes. In fact if it did not, we would be living in an airless void like the moon. The great ocean going reptiles would still be living in warm shallow inlet sea's and dinosaurs would still rule the earth except for climate change and/or a big ass meteor strike.

No proof exists that man has had any more than a small effect on the climate. Mother nature however has a major impact. Methane produced in some amount by every animal on the planet beats CO2 emissions every time.

Get with it people climate change is very real, not much we can do about it until we get a weather control machine working though.

grip said:

I've lived in Florida for 45 yrs and when we went through the fires of 1998 that burned 1/2 million acres and the 6 hurricanes of 2004-05 I didn't need anyone to tell me things have changed. Common sense out weighs technical gibberish.

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Right... ignore the facts... and go on your anectodal observation... :roll:

watchout the sky must also be falling...

BTW the "technical gibberish" (the facts from actual compiled data), say that there has been 1 category 3 hurricane to hit FL since 1995... Just 1... Hurricane Charley in 2004... so please, go on with your rant... without facts to back it up...

500 years of hurricane history - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

Also... since you've been there for 45 years... you say...

There have been just 4 major hurricanes to hit FL since you've been there...

(7 yrs) - 1975 - (15yrs) - 1992 - (3yrs) - 1995 - (9yrs) - 2004 (8yrs) to present...

that's an average 8.4 yrs between major storms of a category 3 hurricane or higher ever ... and it's been 8 since the last...

things aren't getting worse... they're right on track...

same as with NYC... Miami is the most likely place for a major hurricane to hit... it's on the longest drought of any to get hit with a major storm... NYC was 2nd on that list...

so don't go making this same bogus claim when Miami gets hit in the next 2-3 yrs with a hurricane... that's just what's supposed to happen...




"Wise men say, only fools rush in..."

but I can't help claiming global warming is the cause of the lack of storms of a severe nature?

sorry bud, FACTS don't back it up...

time to get a grip...