re: Chevy CEO to Romney and his Hacks: "Lies are just that, Lies" [W:114]
No… I posted that link to show the fact that when they were countering the argument, they said it was a poorly worded Bloomberg article, but they analyzed the wrong Bloomberg article… they took took the one where they said they’re opening new plants up in China and not moving production… But the other Bloomberg article… the longer one, which is more in depth, says that they intend on eventually moving all production overseas
Can you provide that link? You posted a lot of stuff,
much of which refutes you.
Also… opening ANY plants overseas takes away from potential production in US plants… you are aware of that, correct?
No, it
doesn't. You are unaware of how business decisions are made. You are assuming that the production to meet projected demand will be met. You seem very unaware of the notion of
cost. Does it make sense for a manufacturer to lose money on meeting a small increase in demand? Not unless they are trying to shutout of a competitor from the market, and based on Chinese demand for Jeeps, that doesn't seem to be the case. You are trying to hide the fact that you are extremely partisan, but the problem is you view things through a "How Can I Attack Obama on this?" Rather than an objective business perspective. That's primarily why you've made so many mistakes that are painfully obvious to those who aren't viewing the world through a rabid partisan attack dog lens. Why would Chrysler potentially lose money to meet demand? That makes no sense.
Furthermore, there aren't any lost jobs here anyways. Curtailing potential expansion of US jobs doesn't mean we have actually lost any actual jobs. It's all paper losses. Discussing what may be done is essentially fantasy. If we choose to leave the world of facts and move into the mystical netherworld of whatever may happen will happen, then there's really no point in talking to you as partisans like you will essentially fabricate what might happen and then blame the fact that it won't happen on Obama despite the potential it would possibly never happen anyways.
Those cars in China could be made in America and exported to China… That would increase American jobs, would it not? You say there is a demand there, did you not? So why not use America’s advantage to balance out our trade imbalance?
To which they may be seriously unprofitable. You seem very unaware of what taxes China imposes upon foreign imports for domestic consumption. Furthermore, you seem very unaware of what foreign sourced cars are up against in the domestic Chinese market. Does it make sense for Chrysler to spend huge amounts of money building Jeeps in American, spending huge amounts of money shipping large numbers to China and then having to pay a whopping 17% VAT and then having to compete with Foreign brands built in China who are not subject to the high shipping costs and high VAT?
No. It does not. You missed this because you're not looking at it from a business perspective. You are looking at this solely to bash Obama and that's why your argument is so incredibly weak. Rather then first deal with the economics of the deal, you purely approach this from a political perspective. That's not how Chrysler is making decisions and that's why you have utterly failed to understand the actual situation.
It is not Chrysler's job to reduce the trade imbalance. It is Chrysler's job to make money selling vehicles. Spending lots of money to compete in a market where you have several major disadvantages over your rivals is a dumb thing to do. What Chrysler is doing is alleviating those disadvantages by moving production to China to meet the Chinese demand. This is entirely unrelated to the bailout outside of using Fiat's money to build facilities to produce Jeeps.
No, instead, they’re going to begin making Jeep models in China, by Chinese manufacturers… once that gets underway… and they can make the Jeeps in China for much cheaper than they do here in the states… how long do you think it would be until they make the ultimate decision to just make all Jeeps over in China and ship them over here? Not long… and the articles I clipped said it could happen as early as 2014…
They have to. China does not allow foreign manufacturers to operate independent. They are required by law to partner with local Chinese firms. You again seem
extremely uninformed about how business in China works. It's not necessarily the cost of manufacture itself. The shipping and import taxes are huge. Toyota, Honda, BMW, Kia, Hyundai, Nissan and others shifted production into the US to
avoid the same problems. It's expensive to ship cars across the world. Cars made in China will have the same problems that Toyota had back before they moved production. And there's the issue of quality control. Domestic production for domestic use in China has a significantly lower QC then production for export. Tooling up to meet US requirements both legal and consumer is going to cost huge amounts of money. Factor in the cost of shipping and the import taxes and much, if not all of the benefits disappear. China (and much of South East Asia) has benefited from production of relatively low tech exports. An iPhone has no moving parts. And doesn't run the risk of killing people. A Jeep does. On top of that, the cost of labor is swiftly rising in China. So much so that manufacturers are leaving China for cheaper locations. Again, you seem
extremely uninformed about how business in China works. Much of your argument is little more then emotional scare tactics rather then an informed opinion about the state of China's business environment. It's pretty clear you did basically no research at all.
I think you meant to delete that part, because it still says blatantly Marchionne intends on building Chrysler including Jeeps for export to North America over to Italy…
Why would I delete it? It makes sense to use facilities that otherwise would idle to make similar vehicles for US export rather then EU consumption. There is going to be some tool up time, but it's not a bad decision. Furthermore, it's not exactly like Chrysler is sitting on factories that are doing nothing. When your domestic production in the US is largely running at near capacity, you really can't produce more vehicles there.
But, thanks for re-iterating that point for me
You're welcome, but you really don't understand this business. It's clear from your posts that your understanding of the global consumer vehicle market is exceptionally shallow. Do some research before posting next time. And don't view it through a partisan lens.
And… Just what exactly will Fiat producing a small Jeep like SUV in Italy, and exporting it to North America do, exactly?
Produce a small Jeep that is exported to the US. And obviously then export that to the rest of the EU when the market picks back up as Europeans tend to favor smaller vehicles for a variety of reasons. Cutting the Fiat's plant's teeth on a small Jeep is a good way to tool up to producing Jeep like vehicles for European tastes.
Well, since you failed to think that far ahead… let’s do that now, together, shall we?
If Fiat begins selling a Jeep like product in America, it will cut into sales of actual Jeep.
Because? What makes you think that people will automatically buy it? Furthermore, what makes you think they can actually make money on it? Furthermore, what makes you think they're not simply going back to exporting to other EU nations and cut the import tax and shipping costs?
If Jeep sales go down, they will shut down production in America…
If Fiat steps up production in Italy of this new model, they can shut down American jobs for Jeep without moving them to Italy, and just increase Fiat jobs at the Italian plants Marchionne promised to the Italians that he would keep open
You clearly do not understand the concept of costs. European costs are in many ways, worse then our own. Top that with shipping costs and import charges and it's pretty clear that it makes far more sense to export to the EU then to North America. As the CEO stated, the reason they are doing this is because it makes a little money on a facility that otherwise would idle and be a money pit. The second the EU comes out of its Austerity Fueled Recession, Fiat will switch back to full production for European market. Unless you think that producing cars at similar, if not worse base costs, adding in high shipping costs, then import taxes is a good idea verse relying upon automated US plants with cheaper shipping costs and no import taxes is a good idea....
Again, you’re falling prey to the surface level details, without digging into them to see what they mean…
Now that was Ironic considering what I just said.
Actually… my own links have shown that they’re looking into production sources in Italy and China for export to North America… that benefits Fiat, not Chrysler/Jeep… That was EXACTLY the point Romney made in the ad… and that’s exactly what’s going on…
And your own links says that production in China is for China. And your own links says that Italian production is largely to use a plant that otherwise would idle. And Fiat is Chrysler at this point.
And no, this isn't what Romney is saying. Moving production to China would happen regardless of the bailout as it simply makes sense. You again are extremely unaware of the concept of
cost. All Romney is doing is trying to blame the bailout for what would have happened regardless. And that is dishonest.
I have a question for you:
If the bailout didn't happen and Chrysler magically found someone to fund their chapter 11, why would they not move production to China and retain the many serious economic disadvantages that they currently have by not sourcing production to China?
Let's stick to the topic and stop attacking each other shall we?