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What Romney really said about GM . . .

Dude, it is ****ing wrong to call someone a liar and then punk out by claiming you are too lazy to back up your claim. That is pathetic.

I disagree. While it's obviously impossible to 100% prove any claim about what "would have happened," I think that everyone who is knowledgeable about the situation concedes that GM and Chryler would have failed but-for the bailouts. Even the Economist, which initially supported Romney's op-ed, later recanted and conceded that they were wrong.

Clearly, eh? You are just guessing what his intent was. But regardless of what his intent was, GM and Chrysler would have failed if the government hadn't taken them through bankruptcy.

Here is the fairest post you've made on the subject:

I don't think that's quite right, and that is part of the confusion. What Romney was objecting to there, specifically, was the bailout proposal that GM put forward. Obama also rejected that proposal.

You seem to have forgotten your own post since then.

However, I did go back through most of your posts today, and I am incorrect. You've never said Romney wanted GM to go bankrupt. My apologies.
 
Repeating Obama's lies does not make it true.
then let's now compare the truthiness of your own version of events
Obama's plan was the government buying into GM, taking GM stock, to end run around bankruptcy laws to stiff all creditors and stockholders on behalf of the union.
actually - and this is significant - it was dubya who funded the GM bailout
it was left up to Obama to institute provisions for GM to use the money it had already been given
it was left up to Obama to figure out how to get GM to the point it would be able to repay that debt to the American taxpayer
so far, the truthfulness of your version is not holding up against the light of reality
This trashed the value of GM stock when it was no longer backed by bankruptcy laws at least minimally protecting investors and why GM is already going broke again.
the value of GM stock had diminished to nothing when that corporation became reliant on taxpayer dollars to remain in operation. that occurred before Obama was sworn in
second. bankruptcy laws do NOT back stock values
bankruptcy is what one faces when its ability to pay its just obligations no longer exists
investors in any stock are taking a risk
those who were invested in GM saw their investment value plummet because they had invested in a company which was poorly managed, such that it could no longer meet its debt service obligations
in short, GM was a net debtor and its balance sheet revealed that there was no equity for the extant shareholders. Obama had NOTHING to do with that reality
so, it appears your narrative remains a piece of fiction
Romney's plan was for GM to go thru traditional Chapter 11 bankruptcy and then reorganized by private capital assured by the US government.
that could not have been romney's plan because romney is too smart to not understand how the bankruptcy courts operate, and that description screams of one being ignorant about the ways of bankruptcy activities. so, again, the truthiness factor of your presentation is beyond lacking
i will explain what is wrong with your statement so that you will not think i am blowing smoke
when a business files for a chapter 11 (reorganization) bankruptcy, it does so in an attempt to put its creditors at bay long enough for a reorganization plan to be approved by the court
what we know is that there was NO private capital willing to invest in GM as it entered the unpredictable environment of bankruptcy court
had such private investment been available, there would have been no need to infuse GM with taxpayer money. that reality should again illustrate why your version must be found bogus
That is the most certain of loans to get because the lender cannot lose
why does it make sense of the government to capitalize GM via private institutions? this is another situation where the profits to the private lenders would be privatized if realized, but the losses would be socialized and absorbed by the taxpayer
i can see why you would think such would be romney's plan
but that is not what happened
dubya's administration threw a bunch of money at GM and left
- meaning GM would get the money,
yes, GM got the money, but it was received from a bush regime on the way out the door. there were no private investors willing to bet a huge amount of capital on an auto manufacturer that just became a bankrupt debtor right at the "height" of the financial meltdown
would have shaved off many debts,
that is not how accounting works
the debt would not be shaved. it would at best be the same as it had been, only owed to other creditors, and very likely the amount of debt would have increased by the amount on new capital required to give the bankrupt debtor time to reorganize
for example, if the company has $1 billion in current/past due obligations to existing creditors and the government infuses $1 billion to pay those current and delinquent obligations, that $1 billion due the first creditors is extinguished upon the repayment to them. however, the $1 billion borrowed to enable such payment becomes a new financial liability of the company. in that example, the company's net worth remained unchanged
the point being that it would NOT have 'shaved' off any debt
and in fact GM received from the taxpayer money which exceeded what was required to pay current and delinquent obligations. it received the additional money as working capital to survive while it reorganized to achieve profitability
and the stock value restored.
this cannot be possible
the stock of the original shareholders became worthless once the amount GM owed exceeded GM's ability to pay. that shareholder equity which once existed was dissipated by the auto maker's losses
again, take note how your far fetched description has no relationship to reality
Obama's plan was not about protecting GM. It was about sidestepping US bankruptcy laws for the unions.
Obama inherited the mess from the shrub, not unlike the economy in general
what he did was monitor GM's actions in such a way as to maximize its ability to survive to repay the money the taxpayers had provided to GM as a bailout
NO bankruptcy laws were sidestepped
but if you insist they were, please list them so that this discussion can be continued
 
good point, and a similar thing, many people think we can command technical progress by throwing money at our problems without actually considering the risk of failure. The Italians just imprisoned scientists for not accurately predicting an earthquake, just an example of how stupid politicians, and the public, can be. Maybe we should be putting some Politicians and some Wall Street types in prison? Surely it would be more justified than putting scientists in prison..

Politicians around the world deserve serious prison time. If judged by the true measure of the laws they create I doubt most would get by without some really good felonies.

What can you do? :shrug: It obviously isn't bad enough for real change.
 
Wow, a personal attack that is 100% lacking in rationale. That is so consistent of you.

How about pointing out a few examples where you believe I've been dishonest?

Insisting Romney wanted to liquidate GM after the article he wrote years ago has been out for everyone to read. That's dishonest. He plainly explains his position on the bankruptcy, and it's not what you say it is.
 
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Insisting Romney wanted to liquidate GM after the article he wrote years ago has been out for everyone to read. That's dishonest. He plainly explains his position on the bankruptcy, and it's not what you say it is.

tell us exactly what aspect of romney's proposal has been misrepresented
 
Insisting Romney wanted to liquidate GM after the article he wrote years ago has been out for everyone to read. That's dishonest. He plainly explains his position on the bankruptcy, and it's not what you say it is.

Romney doesn't plainly explain anything. That's the problem. He always leaves weasel room so he can change positions like Gaga changes costumes. In this case he said that GM and Chrysler should do a structured bankruptcy, and he says that the government should support them AFTER the bankruptcy, but he never says that the government should take them THROUGH the bankruptcy process, which was the alpha and the omega of saving GM and Chrysler. If the government doesn't take them through bankruptcy they don't come out the other side and there's nothing for the government to support.
 
tell us exactly what aspect of romney's proposal has been misrepresented

Romney never suggested liquidating GM through bankruptcy. He proposed to do what Obama did, with the one exception that he wanted to use private funding backed by govt guarantees.
 
Romney never suggested liquidating GM through bankruptcy. He proposed to do what Obama did, with the one exception that he wanted to use private funding backed by govt guarantees.

let me get this right
you would support having the taxpayers absorb the private funders' losses
to give those private investors the opportunity to reap a windfall of profits by capitalizing GM

you would privatize any profits such that they would flow to the investors and you would advocate socializing any losses such that they would be paid by the American taxpayers

please point out anything i may have gotten wrong
 
let me get this right
you would support having the taxpayers absorb the private funders' losses
to give those private investors the opportunity to reap a windfall of profits by capitalizing GM

you would privatize any profits such that they would flow to the investors and you would advocate socializing any losses such that they would be paid by the American taxpayers

please point out anything i may have gotten wrong

what the heck are you talking abou??t.. American never said that.. nor was what American said confusing..
 
what the heck are you talking abou??t.. American never said that.. nor was what American said confusing..

that is EXACTLY what he insisted romney proposed
that private investors would fund GM but only with government guarantees
read American's post
better yet, here it is with my emphasis for the reading impaired:
Romney never suggested liquidating GM through bankruptcy. He proposed to do what Obama did, with the one exception that he wanted to use private funding backed by govt guarantees.
 
that is EXACTLY what he insisted romney proposed
that private investors would fund GM but only with government guarantees
read American's post
better yet, here it is with my emphasis for the reading impaired:

good lord you dont much about business...
 
Of course Obama lied...

GM should have been allowed to fail, democrats were opposed - because they knew a bunch of UAW workers out of work is bad carma....

In short - GM wasn't the concern but union workers were.

A book could be written on GM, UAW and Obama (progressives) on this GM issue......

Thank you for telling the truth about what Romney was proposing. And you ae right abut the unions too. Romney wanted them decimated like the auto workers jobs. Thankfully Obama would have none of it.
 
It is not better because the government should not be intervening in the market. We are not a command economy. Profiting should be the goal. We are in the financial mess we are because our government has been trying to command the economy.

So the fall back is your ideology and a fairy tale myth of how the economy is structured. Not to mention a hyperbolic statement that a bailout of a private firm turns our economy into the Soviet Union.

So government intervention is fine as long as tax payers are on the hook for losses and a private entity has all the potential upside....but heaven forbid the government cuts out the middle man.
 
So the fall back is your ideology and a fairy tale myth of how the economy is structured. Not to mention a hyperbolic statement that a bailout of a private firm turns our economy into the Soviet Union.

So government intervention is fine as long as tax payers are on the hook for losses and a private entity has all the potential upside....but heaven forbid the government cuts out the middle man.

Why would you want tax payers on the hook for the losses?
 
Why would you want tax payers on the hook for the losses?


good question
ask romney
it's his proposal


just like the shrub bailed out wall street and passed the losses on to the taxpayer to pay
it appears to be a GOP thing
 
good question
ask romney
it's his proposal


just like the shrub bailed out wall street and passed the losses on to the taxpayer to pay
it appears to be a GOP thing

Just a GOP thing?

So then Fannie and Freddie don't get guaranteed loans? Sallie, she doesn't get no guarantees either? The financial bailouts, no loan guarantees? Obama's GM plan, it didn't leave tax payers on the hook?

Cool story. :roll:
 
Just a GOP thing?

So then Fannie and Freddie don't get guaranteed loans? Sallie, she doesn't get no guarantees either? The financial bailouts, no loan guarantees? Obama's GM plan, it didn't leave tax payers on the hook?

Cool story. :roll:

and again you tossed me a softball. thanks

fannie mae was privatized. by that dick nixon ... proud member of the grand old party
so, wealthy investors earned huge sums from their investments in fannie mae shares

but when we had the financial meltdown, what did dubya's (GOP) regime do. bailed out fannie mae

yep, as Warren Buffett noted, there is a class war going on and the poor are losing. thanks to the GOP
 
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