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What A Lie Is

tererun said:
Actually, what he did is working. he did save lots of jobs, and he did save the US auto industry. It has worked, the debate is about how much it has worked. Certainly he has brought us back to a steady increase in jobs, and the market is going up, and people are doing better. Yes, we can see what he is proposing to do in the future. He has been doing it and proposing these things because it is his job. You can't say he has not been. We know what his plans are. It is Romney's claims that don't make any sense in reality and that is why we want to know what his plans actually are. It is easy to make a promise. It is hard to keep it. Romney is promising us 12 million new jobs. How the hell is he going to do that?
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He did not save the auto industry. He set GM up for eventual failure, and he wasted 60 billion dollars in taxpayer money to do it. If the government did nothing at all we'd have better growth in jobs than we have now -- any growth in jobs has been in spite of his policies. Yes, we can see what he is doing and we can see that it has to be stopped before our entire economy is in ruins.
 
tererun said:
No, people's opinions and ignorance do not make something where there isn't anything that does that. Your delusions do not make that a lie.
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I don't understand where you are going with this. Are you refuting the idea that someone with intelligence and knowledge is capable of understanding the implications of this legislation? Either way your statement, if taken to be true, also disproves AdamT's first premise that "It is impossible for an intelligent, well informed person to believe that "death panels" exist in ACA", therefore it invalidates the conclusion.
 
KWA said:
I don't understand where you are going with this. Are you refuting the idea that someone with intelligence and knowledge is capable of understanding the implications of this legislation? Either way your statement, if taken to be true, also disproves AdamT's first premise that "It is impossible for an intelligent, well informed person to believe that "death panels" exist in ACA", therefore it invalidates the conclusion.
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Opinions don't change facts, and the fact is that ACA specifically requires certain members of the review panel to be doctors, so Ryan flat-out lied about that. There is no way around that. Further, the ACA specifically prohibits the panel's recommendations from being enforced in any respect withouth congressional approval, so he also lied about that. These are facts -- not things about which reasonable people can disagree.
 
tererun said:
Actually, what he did is working. he did save lots of jobs, and he did save the US auto industry. It has worked, the debate is about how much it has worked. Certainly he has brought us back to a steady increase in jobs, and the market is going up, and people are doing better. Yes, we can see what he is proposing to do in the future. He has been doing it and proposing these things because it is his job. You can't say he has not been. We know what his plans are. It is Romney's claims that don't make any sense in reality and that is why we want to know what his plans actually are. It is easy to make a promise. It is hard to keep it. Romney is promising us 12 million new jobs. How the hell is he going to do that?
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How is Obama going to create jobs? Saving GM 3 1/2 years ago doesn't tell me crap about how is going to create jobs next year. Corporations and banks are sitting on piles of cash already and QE3 isn't working, so how is he going to energize economic growth? Since you know what is plans are, tell me the answer to those two questions.
 
Fisher said:
How is Obama going to create jobs? Saving GM 3 1/2 years ago doesn't tell me crap about how is going to create jobs next year. Corporations and banks are sitting on piles of cash already and QE3 isn't working, so how is he going to energize economic growth? Since you know what is plans are, tell me the answer to those two questions.
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So you DO think that government creates jobs? It is the president's job to create private sector jobs? Just curious. Because Republicans generally claim that government does not create jobs ... while boasting about how many jobs they would create if they were in charge of the government. Things that make you go "hmmmmm."
 
AdamT said:
So you DO think that government creates jobs? It is the president's job to create private sector jobs? Just curious. Because Republicans generally claim that government does not create jobs ... while boasting about how many jobs they would create if they were in charge of the government. Things that make you go "hmmmmm."
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<<<<<you don't see "republican" over there now do you? Of course the government creates jobs--they are mostly called bureaucrats though--but the government is also pretty good at killing private sector employment, so pick whatever semantic-side of the coin you wish, but the question remains unanswered as to what Obama plans to do whether you call it creating jobs or to stop killing jobs.
 
LowDown said:
He did not save the auto industry. He set GM up for eventual failure, and he wasted 60 billion dollars in taxpayer money to do it. If the government did nothing at all we'd have better growth in jobs than we have now -- any growth in jobs has been in spite of his policies. Yes, we can see what he is doing and we can see that it has to be stopped before our entire economy is in ruins.
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Opinion, the auto industry is still here and those people are still employed. So yes he did save their jobs. The future is up for debate, but he did save their jobs.
 
Fisher said:
How is Obama going to create jobs? Saving GM 3 1/2 years ago doesn't tell me crap about how is going to create jobs next year. Corporations and banks are sitting on piles of cash already and QE3 isn't working, so how is he going to energize economic growth? Since you know what is plans are, tell me the answer to those two questions.
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He is continuing the investment in business, and he is trying to make policies to protect the america worker from cheap labor overseas.
 
tererun said:
Opinion, the auto industry is still here and those people are still employed. So yes he did save their jobs. The future is up for debate, but he did save their jobs.
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IMHO, Obama should have let GM and Chrysler go through the restructuring process afforded them in the Bankruptcy laws. Investors wouldn't have been illegally placed behind Unions in pay outs, and we the people wouldn't have lost some $25Billion give or take.
 
tererun said:
He is continuing the investment in business, and he is trying to make policies to protect the america worker from cheap labor overseas.
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Do you think government does a better job running business than business does?
 
tererun said:
Opinion, the auto industry is still here and those people are still employed. So yes he did save their jobs. The future is up for debate, but he did save their jobs.
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Yes, he saved the jobs of union workers who had to take no cut in pay or benefits and remain a millstone around the neck of the company. If the company had gone through a normal bankruptcy there would now probably be more people employed by the company.

He didn't exactly save the jobs of those non-union workers at the Saturn plants. Those 15,000 workers lost their jobs. He wasn't out to save jobs, he was out to save the union, which remains an important asset to the Democratic Party.
 
Boo Radley said:
I'm willing to live with wrong, as conservatives have been wrong a lot. But, when you say something like the healthcare reform has a death panel, of will decide who gets care and who doesn't, you're lying. There is no white washing that.
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I agree that it is uncivil how political discourse has coarsened to the point that hyperbole becomes a staple of political campaigns.

Certainly the "death panel" is hyperbole, but certainly it is not a lie. There will be panels of people who decide if a procedure can be paid for depending on a wide range of circumstances. The most common of these standards is "Is the expenditure worth the benefit?" Meaning = is there a more deserving candidate for this expenditure?

Call it what you want - the idea is the same.

Certainly it is not as big a lie as the standard DEM meme "the GOP wants you to have dirty air and polluted water." This by any measure is a pure lie because it does not relate to anything but a manufactured position made from a malicious desire to smear the other guy. If someone wants to debate the merits of EACH environmental proposal, then let's have that debate. But to oppose a radical environmentalist proposal to shut down the petroleum industry overnight is nowhere similar to 'wanting people to have dirty air and polluted water.'

It is certainly not as big a lie as another DEM standard "GOP wants to balance the budget on the backs of the poor." This one defies any logic. The GOP by any measure wants to balance the budget by making the poor more productive and move into the middle class where their improved standard of living produced more tax revenue and reduced the required welfare expenditure. Only to a DEM does this equate to 'war on the poor' - and that is because the DEMs rely on - and cultivate the expansion of - the poor population. It is the death knell of the DEM party if people move out of poverty and into the middle class. They will tell any lie to prevent that from happening.

And amongst the worst lie of all = "the GOP is racist." Only the DEM party judges a man by the color of his skin and assigns him to a place in society = either needing coddling and welfare, or deserving of being shaken down and reduced.

Anyway - the political discourse from both sides is despicable, but taken more advantage of by the DEMs than by the GOP by a wide margin.
 
LowDown said:
Yes, he saved the jobs of union workers who had to take no cut in pay or benefits and remain a millstone around the neck of the company. If the company had gone through a normal bankruptcy there would now probably be more people employed by the company.

He didn't exactly save the jobs of those non-union workers at the Saturn plants. Those 15,000 workers lost their jobs. He wasn't out to save jobs, he was out to save the union, which remains an important asset to the Democratic Party.
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Precisely - the "stimulus" package was nothing more than a slush fund for Obama fundraisers. Unions, primarily but also the 'green' industries who donate huge $$ to Obama in exchange for millions of dollars of stimulus money and extra-legal bankruptcy proceedings that protect their assets over the taxpayers. Obama is nothing more than a corrupt shyster.
 
Rokkitsci said:
Anyway - the political discourse from both sides is despicable, but taken more advantage of by the DEMs than by the GOP by a wide margin.
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Right after calling the Democrats lying, class warrior, racists! Priceless.
 
LowDown said:
In this election season I believe it's appropriate to explain what a "lie" is since so many people seem to be unclear on the concept.

I will tell you what a lie is by telling you what it is not.

1. It is not a lie for a person to state an opinion with which you disagree.

You may disagree with Romney's assertion that Social Security is headed for failure. That does not mean that Romney is lying about Social Security.

2. It is not a lie for a person to change his mind about something.

Romney may have changed is economic plans. That does not mean that Romney is lying about what his plans are.

3. Speculations in all of their forms are nothing more than opinions and therefore can never be lies.

Ryan can speculate about the future of the Middle East. If you don't agree with those speculations it doesn't mean that Ryan is lying.

4. If person A lies and person B does not contradict it then it does not mean that person B is also lying.

If Ambassador Rice did indeed try to deliberately deceive Americans about the Libyan situation it does not mean that Obama was being deceptive also.

5. It is not a lie if a person believes what he's saying is true, even if what is being asserted is self-serving.

More likely Rice was just mistaken about the situation in Libya even if it came off as being self-serving.

6. If a person states an interpretation of the facts with which you disagree then it does not mean that he is lying.

If Romney looks at the economic numbers and concludes that we are still in a recession it does not mean he is lying even if you think that the numbers show that we are obviously in recovery.

7. Falsehoods are not lies unless there is a deliberate attempt to deceive.

We won't know if Rice was lying or not until we can read her mind and her intentions. Better to give the benefit of a doubt.

8. A falsehood uttered by someone you don't like is not automatically a lie.

Joe Biden was probably not attempting to deceive people about his vote on Iraq. Most likely he had just forgotten.

9. If a person makes a guess about something that turns out to be wrong it is not proof that he was lying.

The Obama Economic Team's predictions about future unemployment were wildly wrong, but that doesn't mean they were lying or trying to deceive us.
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a lie is when you know the truth, but continue to perpetrate that lie to score points. It's called out and out lying.
 
rocket88 said:
Right after calling the Democrats lying, class warrior, racists! Priceless.
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You may - if you pay close attention - realize I am not candidate for office and I was replying to a poster who gave only one example and that of a GOP 'lie.'

If you would like to join the debate, please do so.

If you think the DEMs are not the most prone to pump out disinformation (aka "lies") as the staple of their campaigns, please provide examples to that effect. I have provide three to support my view, and have debunked the one example putting forth the opposite idea.

Do you have any examples you think are most resistant to being revealed as outright hyperbole then have at it.

tia.
 
Rokkitsci said:
I agree that it is uncivil how political discourse has coarsened to the point that hyperbole becomes a staple of political campaigns.

Certainly the "death panel" is hyperbole, but certainly it is not a lie. There will be panels of people who decide if a procedure can be paid for depending on a wide range of circumstances. The most common of these standards is "Is the expenditure worth the benefit?" Meaning = is there a more deserving candidate for this expenditure?

Call it what you want - the idea is the same.

Certainly it is not as big a lie as the standard DEM meme "the GOP wants you to have dirty air and polluted water." This by any measure is a pure lie because it does not relate to anything but a manufactured position made from a malicious desire to smear the other guy. If someone wants to debate the merits of EACH environmental proposal, then let's have that debate. But to oppose a radical environmentalist proposal to shut down the petroleum industry overnight is nowhere similar to 'wanting people to have dirty air and polluted water.'

It is certainly not as big a lie as another DEM standard "GOP wants to balance the budget on the backs of the poor." This one defies any logic. The GOP by any measure wants to balance the budget by making the poor more productive and move into the middle class where their improved standard of living produced more tax revenue and reduced the required welfare expenditure. Only to a DEM does this equate to 'war on the poor' - and that is because the DEMs rely on - and cultivate the expansion of - the poor population. It is the death knell of the DEM party if people move out of poverty and into the middle class. They will tell any lie to prevent that from happening.

And amongst the worst lie of all = "the GOP is racist." Only the DEM party judges a man by the color of his skin and assigns him to a place in society = either needing coddling and welfare, or deserving of being shaken down and reduced.

Anyway - the political discourse from both sides is despicable, but taken more advantage of by the DEMs than by the GOP by a wide margin.
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No, it's a lie, and a huge lie. Insurance companies do this and often witout any rea medical voice. Itis about effectiveness of procedure and not deciding who gets care. It is a huge misrepresetation onther parts.

And largly tax cuts do hlp the elthy more than the middle class or the poor, and do not create jobs (there is information on his that ca be linked). And when you cuts programs that elp the poor, while giving braks to the wealthy, not sure what you call that. There s lely ome hperbole, true, but it does fvor the wealthy and not the middle class, le alone he poor.

As for race, it is about whether you issues are addressed. Pretending that there ar no issues may make se feel better, but that isn't reality.
 
Boo Radley said:
No, it's a lie, and a huge lie. Insurance companies do this and often witout any rea medical voice. Itis about effectiveness of procedure and not deciding who gets care. It is a huge misrepresetation onther parts.

And largly tax cuts do hlp the elthy more than the middle class or the poor, and do not create jobs (there is information on his that ca be linked). And when you cuts programs that elp the poor, while giving braks to the wealthy, not sure what you call that. There s lely ome hperbole, true, but it does fvor the wealthy and not the middle class, le alone he poor.

As for race, it is about whether you issues are addressed. Pretending that there ar no issues may make se feel better, but that isn't reality.
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Joe, your debate dodging, and hyperbolic gymnastics are hard enough to follow without the faulty key board....:lol: What in God's name are you talking about here? :coffeepap:
 
j-mac said:
Joe, your debate dodging, and hyperbolic gymnastics are hard enough to follow without the faulty key board....:lol: What in God's name are you talking about here? :coffeepap:
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It's not very hard to follow. There are no death panels. Clear statement. There are no boards that determine who gets care. Again, a clear statement. There is no way to make Romney's statement truthful. Either he is ignorant and uninformed, or he's lying. Your choice.
 
j-mac said:
IMHO, Obama should have let GM and Chrysler go through the restructuring process afforded them in the Bankruptcy laws. Investors wouldn't have been illegally placed behind Unions in pay outs, and we the people wouldn't have lost some $25Billion give or take.
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That is nice and all but we are talking about what a lie is. That is your opinion and you are entitled to be wrong. Just as long as you don't spout it as fact then I am all ok with you spouting it.
 
j-mac said:
Do you think government does a better job running business than business does?
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That is not the topic. Anything I say would be an opinion and therefor it would not be a lie, but it is also not a fact.
 
Boo Radley said:
It's not very hard to follow. There are no death panels. Clear statement. There are no boards that determine who gets care. Again, a clear statement. There is no way to make Romney's statement truthful. Either he is ignorant and uninformed, or he's lying. Your choice.
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First off, Romney didn't bring up "death panels" never uttered the words. Second,

The Independent Payment Advisory Board, created by the health law, is designed to help hold down costs in Medicare, the federal health program for seniors and the disabled. It is not yet operating. But Republicans -- and some Democrats -- have denounced the concept, saying it would wind up rationing care and would eclipse congressional authority over Medicare.

The IPAB: The Center Of A Political Clash Over How To Change Medicare - Kaiser Health News
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tererun said:
That is nice and all but we are talking about what a lie is. That is your opinion and you are entitled to be wrong. Just as long as you don't spout it as fact then I am all ok with you spouting it.
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That is a clever spin you have there, but suppose you tell me what is inaccurate so that we may determine?
 
tererun said:
That is not the topic. Anything I say would be an opinion and therefor it would not be a lie, but it is also not a fact.
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No, it is a question, designed to further discourse. Is that not what you are seeking here?
 
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