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Thoughts on Last Night's Debate: Romney Comes Across as Presidential

donsutherland1

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Governor Romney demonstrated that he can be Presidential and created the impression of being knowledgeable on a wide range of issues. He also tied each of his positions to the all-important issue of job creation. His debate performance should stem his recent weakening in the polls and allow him to partially recover some of the lost ground.

On the tax issue, he introduced a principle that his tax reform ideas will be revenue-neutral. As he's inclined to reduce tax rates, revenue neutrality will require changes to deductions, exemptions, and/or credits. He offered no specifics at this debate.

Previously, I believed he would have to do so. However, the President's off night probably allowed him to accomplish what he needed to achieve from this debate without getting into specificity. IMO, some specifics will be necessary if Governor Romney is to consolidate or even build on his debate success. He will need to shift from explaining the principles that will guide his policy to articulating a vision that the electorate would find credible and attractive. A stronger performance by the President at the next debate will likely make it necessary for the Governor to provide some specifics and it is unlikely that the President will have two consecutive weak performances given the debating ability he demonstrated during the 2008 Clinton-Obama debates.

For those looking for detail concerning the impact of closing deductions, exemptions, or credits (or "tax expenditures" in budget parlance), the 10 largest figures (using FY 2013 values) are:

1. Employer medical insurance exclusion: $180.6 billion
2. Mortgage-interest deduction: $100.9 billion
3. 401(k)-type Plans: $72.7 billion
4. Capital Gans: $62.0 billion
5. Employer pension plans: $52.3 billion
6. Imputed rental income exclusion: $51.1 billion
7. Non-business state and local tax deduction: $46.3 billion
8. Deferred foreign income: $41.8 billion
9. Charitable contributions deduction: $39.8 billion
10. Exclusion of interest on state and local bonds: $36.2 billion

Total for the 10 largest tax expenditures: $683.7 billion per year

If one takes the 25 largest tax expenditures, the amount comes to $985.6 billion per year. That second tier of tax expenditures includes accelerated depreciation (popular with businesses), Social Security benefits for retirees, Self-Employed pension plans, IRAs, exclusion of interest on life insurance savings, the Child Credit, and the capital gains exclusion on home sales. Afterward, the amounts rapidly fall off. The 50 largest tax expenditures amount to $1.098 trillion per year. That group of tax expenditures includes the individual medical deduction, expensing for R&D, Social Security benefits for disabled workers, and the exclusion of workers' compensation benefits.

Given that a number of these tax expenditures are popular, help comprise the "social safety net," and enhance state and local governments' ability to borrow, a candidate could stumble into a proverbial minefield when getting into detail. Nevertheless, barring flexibility on tax rates, that's the challenge that could confront Governor Romney if he is asked for at least some specifics on his tax reform idea. He can, however, gain cover if he focuses on the ideas outlined in by the Bowles-Simpson Report.

In the end, with his crisp, energetic, and organized performance, Governor Romney implicitly and affirmatively answered the question as to whether he can govern the nation. The next logical question concerns how he would actually govern.
 
This was Romney's first chance to go around the media filter straight to the American people. Obama was on his own without the media to protect him, no teleprompter, no soft ball questions about his favorite color. This was the end of the fairy tale. We saw them side by side. Either Romney is extremely smart or Obama is in way over his head. More likely a combination of both. These men are not on the same intellectual level.
 
Romney was a complete and utter fail.
 
Romney was a complete and utter fail.

Setting aside the different matters of policy positions and political preferences, the majority of those who watched last night's debate concluded that Governor Romney won the debate. He was not a "complete and utter" failure. Indeed, he performed immeasurably better than Senator McCain during any of his debates in 2008.
 
Setting aside the different matters of policy positions and political preferences, the majority of those who watched last night's debate concluded that Governor Romney won the debate. He was not a "complete and utter" failure. Indeed, he performed immeasurably better than Senator McCain during any of his debates in 2008.
Like I said before I guess Americans have different expectations of debates.
 
Donsutherland1, thank you for the detailed information. My understanding from the debate, however, was the Romney plans on closing only the ones that apply to businesses, not to individuals. I have never seen an estimate, but I wonder if forcing corporations to use a cash accounting method could also be a good change tax-wise in which they would find themselves subject to more taxable income but then their rates could be lowered so there would still be a net gain for the public. It would prevent corporations from doing all that crazy deducting like writing off future expenses not yet realized just as long as they are placed in their budget whether or not they will ever be actually realized.
 
Like I said before I guess Americans have different expectations of debates.

Yes, I think we all can agree that Obama has the "socialists" vote. But celestral pixies support Romney, so that is a washout.
 
Romney was a complete and utter fail.

Well when all the lefts Top Partisan Attack Dogs from MSDNC......Chris Matthews, Ed Schultz, Lawerence Odonnel all come out and state Romney won and not only did Romney win. He came to win. Pretty much says it all. Seems the MSM has had to acknowledge Romney's play!

To really top it off is to Have James Carville, Clinton Drone and CNN mainstay come out and say. "Romney won that Obama was a no show". Just adds all the more Icing to that Cake.
 
Care to enumerate your points as to why? (Or is this just some trolling around?)

I will elaborate, is that to me and most of the people I talk to here at least said this debate made Romney look like a stuck up snob. It's the way he answered that really pissed me off. Most of the other stuff may just be because were Canadian. The healthcare debate seems rather stupid to us, it's okay if Romney implements it in Massachusetts but on national level no? Romney's ideas just seem so far from reality and simply unacceptable to us. I think this made Obama's already extremely high approval rating in Canada even higher.
 
I will elaborate, is that to me and most of the people I talk to here at least said this debate made Romney look like a stuck up snob.

You need to get out more and stop surrounding yourself with people who worship at the alter of MSNBC, because that's not how main stream America saw it.
 
You need to get out more and stop surrounding yourself with people who worship at the alter of MSNBC.

The weird thing is I live in a very Conservative part of the country, well my country anyways. In U.S. politics it would be Liberal.
 
I do think that Romney won last night. He was on the attack. Obama was on the defensive. You can't win a debate from a defensive position. Obama needs to show that Romney's tax plan is an accounting shell game. Removing the mortgage interest deduction will not help the housing market. It will not help middle class families.

Since it is revenue neutral, nothing is being gained. It's like Romney and other governors have done but a step further. As governors they get to say that they didn't raise taxes while they oftentimes double or more the fees for various licences and permits. Basically Romney wants to be able to claim to have cut taxes while nobody sees any actual tax relief. If Obama is smart, he will explain this to people.

I think Obama was tired last night. That and his playing not to lose is what gave Romney the edge. I suspect that Obama is saving the "47%" comments for the last debate or maybe even the last week before the election.
 
Donsutherland1, thank you for the detailed information. My understanding from the debate, however, was the Romney plans on closing only the ones that apply to businesses, not to individuals. I have never seen an estimate, but I wonder if forcing corporations to use a cash accounting method could also be a good change tax-wise in which they would find themselves subject to more taxable income but then their rates could be lowered so there would still be a net gain for the public. It would prevent corporations from doing all that crazy deducting like writing off future expenses not yet realized just as long as they are placed in their budget whether or not they will ever be actually realized.

I believe he went beyond just business deductions. Prior to the debate, there were stories to the effect that the Romney campaign was exploring a cap on personal deductions. One link: Romney suggests $17,000 cap on tax deductions – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs
 
I do think that Romney won last night. He was on the attack. Obama was on the defensive. You can't win a debate from a defensive position. Obama needs to show that Romney's tax plan is an accounting shell game. Removing the mortgage interest deduction will not help the housing market. It will not help middle class families.

Since it is revenue neutral, nothing is being gained. It's like Romney and other governors have done but a step further. As governors they get to say that they didn't raise taxes while they oftentimes double or more the fees for various licences and permits. Basically Romney wants to be able to claim to have cut taxes while nobody sees any actual tax relief. If Obama is smart, he will explain this to people.

I think Obama was tired last night. That and his playing not to lose is what gave Romney the edge. I suspect that Obama is saving the "47%" comments for the last debate or maybe even the last week before the election.


How do you think that will work out with the debate being on Foreign Policy? Do you actually think the remark will work in discussing China and the outsourcing of Jobs? Do you think many will notice once the conversation turns to the ME?
 
I do think that Romney won last night. He was on the attack. Obama was on the defensive. You can't win a debate from a defensive position. Obama needs to show that Romney's tax plan is an accounting shell game. Removing the mortgage interest deduction will not help the housing market. It will not help middle class families.

Since it is revenue neutral, nothing is being gained. It's like Romney and other governors have done but a step further. As governors they get to say that they didn't raise taxes while they oftentimes double or more the fees for various licences and permits. Basically Romney wants to be able to claim to have cut taxes while nobody sees any actual tax relief. If Obama is smart, he will explain this to people.

I think Obama was tired last night. That and his playing not to lose is what gave Romney the edge. I suspect that Obama is saving the "47%" comments for the last debate or maybe even the last week before the election.
I think Obama didn't use it because it's too easy to rebut and he didn't want to be made a fool of again.
 
I will elaborate, is that to me and most of the people I talk to here at least said this debate made Romney look like a stuck up snob. It's the way he answered that really pissed me off. Most of the other stuff may just be because were Canadian. The healthcare debate seems rather stupid to us, it's okay if Romney implements it in Massachusetts but on national level no? Romney's ideas just seem so far from reality and simply unacceptable to us. I think this made Obama's already extremely high approval rating in Canada even higher.

Wow. He came off as a stuck-up snob. You really don't like people with money do you?? What an off-the-wall impression of the debate. Actually, when I think about it, you've got nothin'.

Oh, and I doubt there's even one poster on this board who gives a tinker's dam whether or not Canada approves of Obama (or anyone else, for that matter). You've gone and insulted us, Observer.
 
Wow. He came off as a stuck-up snob. You really don't like people with money do you?? What an off-the-wall impression of the debate. Actually, when I think about it, you've got nothin'.

Oh, and I doubt there's even one poster on this board who gives a tinker's dam whether or not Canada approves of Obama (or anyone else, for that matter). You've gone and insulted us, Observer.

Not all rich people I know are snobs just most of them, Romney is now one of them.
 
Not all rich people I know are snobs just most of them, Romney is now one of them.

That, my friend, is a reflection on Observer92. Tell me in what ways he acted that made him appear to be a snob. Here's the definition:

A person with an exaggerated respect for high social position who dislikes people or activities regarded as lower-class.

Now, what did he say last night to lead you to believe he dislikes people or activities regarded as lower-class?
 
Too be honest I think people are getting a little carried away with last nights debate. I thought both Obama and Romney circled around on the same points and seemed to get stuck on the same arguments, Romney was obviously much better on the attack than Obama but if I was an American voter I would still be concenered at the lack of substance in Romneys performance.
 
I will elaborate, is that to me and most of the people I talk to here at least said this debate made Romney look like a stuck up snob. It's the way he answered that really pissed me off. Most of the other stuff may just be because were Canadian. The healthcare debate seems rather stupid to us, it's okay if Romney implements it in Massachusetts but on national level no? Romney's ideas just seem so far from reality and simply unacceptable to us. I think this made Obama's already extremely high approval rating in Canada even higher.
I'll address the healthcare portion of your post as others have already weighed in on the rest of it.

Romney is actually correct in my opinion about it being OK at the state level but not at the national level. The states are far more capable of providing quality healthcare within their state than the federal government is. Bureaucrats in Washington can't possibly account for all of the different conditions and circumstances that each state has to deal with. Economic conditions vary, demographics vary, and infrastructure varies. Taking a "one size fits all" approach cripples efficiency, stifles creativity, sacrifices quality, and ignores all considerations that are state specific. Beyond that it is also an infringement on states rights.

The entire population of Canada is what... 30 million? The US has ten times that many people and is MUCH more diverse. Comparing the situation in Canada to the situation here really is apples to oranges.
 
Not all rich people I know are snobs just most of them, Romney is now one of them.

How do you feel about Bill gates who wants to bring in Foreigners with technical experience and being educated to give them Jobs over any American First? Do you think thats being a Snob? Course as the Richest man in the world and In Obama's Corner. How do you think that relates with Obama and his rubbing elbows with Hollywoods Elite?

Do you think Obama always looking to hang out with Entertainers and Directors, makes him look like just one of the people?
 
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