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Romney Slams Chicago Teachers

tererun said:
What is the difference between having a voucher that covers whatever the cost of the school is and the government simply paying whatever the cost of the school is? Oh yeah, less control, fraud, and more red tape. Good plan.
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You actually think private schools aren’t nests for fraud? That voucher systems don’t draw in con artists and poor managers? Especially if it is something close to a 100% allocation voucher system.

I have sent a child to a private school under a voucher-type system. My wife has sat on two boards. She resigned from both of them because one of them was owned and run by a leech con-artist, the other the owner flaked out and went on a petty rampage to try kill the school out of spite because she lost control of the non-profit corp that she felt she owned (but couldn’t own because of non-profit corp rules).

A voucher system that doesn’t have at least a minimal amount of government oversight is a cluster bang looking to happen.
 
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The Barbarian said:
I won’t let it stop me, teachers are hired to teach, if that means only teaching the students that are bright and want to learn, they we sure don’t need to put “any” qualification for teaching. Give the bright willing kids the books and the time to read and study them and they and will learn themselves ..

Teachers are expected to reach those on the fringe, to draw them into wanting more, to open the minds of the not so willing students. Not to pass them off as too difficult to do anything with.

In no other profession can you produce diminishing results and go to the table expecting a pay increase. As one of the taxpayers paying the salary of teachers I expect more. I expect our kids to be getting a better education, not a worse one. I’m sorry I that you find it troubling that I expect results rather then excuses . Pay more and get less isn’t my idea of a good plan.
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I'm not sure who told you all this. By your reasoning, The New Orleans Saints don't need a coach. New employees don't need training. Everyone can just do it all on their own. You really have no idea how this works at all.

However, go back and read what I responded to, read carefully, and then try to fromulate an appropriate response.

Not sure what to make of your non-responsive rant. I assume you just had to give you hate liberal speech for the day. Do you feel better now?

Anyway, none of what you said had anything to with what I posted. However, I will try to address what you actually said here.

Our educational system is not so much broken as the rest of the world has caught up. What we do have problems with is people who know nothing about education thinking they should be the ones who run things. We also have parents insisting on silly rules, like even if a student does nothing at all, they get 56% of the grade. Not zero. 56%. We have cities with huge problems, poverty and violence, and you think the teacher can overcome all that, since students don't think or feel or act out.

Your post shows no understanding of the problem. None. But don't let that stop you.
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Boo Radley said:
I'm not sure who told you all this. By your reasoning, The New Orleans Saints don't need a coach. New employees don't need training. Everyone can just do it all on their own. You really have no idea how this works at all.

However, go back and read what I responded to, read carefully, and then try to fromulate an appropriate response.
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What part of broken don’t you understand? We spend more per student then any country in the world, and we are ranked lower then we were 20 years ago. Sorry, to me it’s broken.


Man I’m in construction, please if you ever build a new house, give me a call … I’ll build your house for more then anyone else, and give you a poorer job then most of them, in your mind that would be a successful effort.


What I said .. In very simple terms for you … is show me an improvement in the quality of education our kids are getting, then sit down and ask for more money. Like it or not the quality of education reflects on or teachers, are there other factors, of course there are, no one denies that. The bottom line is our education system isn’t working properly, we are not getting any bang for our buck.


The problem I have with people such as you, is that I seems that your only fix is always spend more money and that will fix it . . We’ve done that for the last 25 or 30 years … and it hasn’t fixed anything . It’s time to start looking at other solutions. Solutions that produce results .
 
The Barbarian said:
What part of broken don’t you understand? We spend more per student then any country in the world, and we are ranked lower then we were 20 years ago. Sorry, to me it’s broken.


Man I’m in construction, please if you ever build a new house, give me a call … I’ll build your house for more then anyone else, and give you a poorer job then most of them, in your mind that would be a successful effort.


What I said .. In very simple terms for you … is show me an improvement in the quality of education our kids are getting, then sit down and ask for more money. Like it or not the quality of education reflects on or teachers, are there other factors, of course there are, no one denies that. The bottom line is our education system isn’t working properly, we are not getting any bang for our buck.


The problem I have with people such as you, is that I seems that your only fix is always spend more money and that will fix it . . We’ve done that for the last 25 or 30 years … and it hasn’t fixed anything . It’s time to start looking at other solutions. Solutions that produce results .
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Please show me where I said spend more money. As I didn't, my problem with you is you're not addressing me but some badly understood stereotype.
 
Boo Radley said:
Please show me where I said spend more money. As I didn't, my problem with you is you're not addressing me but some badly understood stereotype.
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My most humble apology , it’s nice to meet a liberal that is “AGAINST” throwing more money at a broken system .. I try to keep in mind that you are against it .. Next time I see a post where you lobby for more money for teachers ..
 
The Barbarian said:
My most humble apology , it’s nice to meet a liberal that is “AGAINST” throwing more money at a broken system .. I try to keep in mind that you are against it .. Next time I see a post where you lobby for more money for teachers ..
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badly understood stereotype....
 
The Barbarian said:
My most humble apology , it’s nice to meet a liberal that is “AGAINST” throwing more money at a broken system .. I try to keep in mind that you are against it .. Next time I see a post where you lobby for more money for teachers ..
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Is that throwing money at the problem? When you ask for a raise, is that throwing money at the problem. I think a distinction or three should be made.
 
Boo Radley said:
Is that throwing money at the problem? When you ask for a raise, is that throwing money at the problem. I think a distinction or three should be made.
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In my mind it is, what is a teachers job ?? Is it not to teach our children? In the last 20 years the results of their teaching, has moved the US rapidly down the list in education compared to other countries, do you deny that ?? Do you deny that teachers salaries are not included in the cost of educating our children ? Do you deny the fact that we pay more per child (k-12) then any country in the world ?

So you believe in paying teachers more, for poorer results …. thus adding to the educational costs.
 
The Barbarian said:
In my mind it is, what is a teachers job ?? Is it not to teach our children? In the last 20 years the results of their teaching, has moved the US rapidly down the list in education compared to other countries, do you deny that ?? Do you deny that teachers salaries are not included in the cost of educating our children ? Do you deny the fact that we pay more per child (k-12) then any country in the world ?

So you believe in paying teachers more, for poorer results …. thus adding to the educational costs.
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Teachers drain taxpayers wallets by demanding raises every year.
 
The Barbarian said:
In my mind it is, what is a teachers job ?? Is it not to teach our children? In the last 20 years the results of their teaching, has moved the US rapidly down the list in education compared to other countries, do you deny that ?? Do you deny that teachers salaries are not included in the cost of educating our children ? Do you deny the fact that we pay more per child (k-12) then any country in the world ?

So you believe in paying teachers more, for poorer results …. thus adding to the educational costs.
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Which is more a sign of other countries catching up, but this is a job dependent on the student as much as the teacher. Children are not shoes. They talk back, the refuse, they have parents who cater to their whims and interfer, harming their children, and so on. So you miss the point to start with. Second, most of what has been done encourages teachers not to tackle tougher populations. It is easier to have results with a more motivated and disciplined population, which does well already. Forgien students do just fine, even in our low perfroming schools, not because teachers favor them, but because they have a different work ethic, and treat school differently. Instead parents who blame teachers, they take personal responsibility.

Now, this doesn't meant they're areas in need of improvement, or that we can't or shouldn't make changes. But it should be informed changes, and based on real research and not mistaken impressions and poorly informed political opnions.
 
The Barbarian said:
In my mind it is, what is a teachers job ?? Is it not to teach our children? In the last 20 years the results of their teaching, has moved the US rapidly down the list in education compared to other countries, do you deny that ?? Do you deny that teachers salaries are not included in the cost of educating our children ? Do you deny the fact that we pay more per child (k-12) then any country in the world ?

So you believe in paying teachers more, for poorer results …. thus adding to the educational costs.
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It appears we're actually #37 in spending on education, not #1.

But, you're correct that simply spending more isn't going to necessarily improve things. What we need to do is:

Get rid of most of the layers of bureaucracy.
Use accurate methods of measuring student progress.
Use progress, rather than an arbitrary achievement standard, to measure success.
Hold parents, administrators, teachers, and students responsible for progress.
Quit pretending that every student is the same. Allow more choices.
Stop using the 19th. century model for the school year. Kids aren't needed on the farm in the summers any more. Schools need to go year around.
Give entering kindergarteners a readiness test. If they're not ready, put them in a pre kindergarten.
Start children of poverty in pre school at a much earlier age

That should be a good start. Most of it wouldn't cost a cent. The preschool and pre kindergarten idea would cost a little bit, but it would pay dividends.

That is a start, at least.
 
Boo Radley said:
Which is more a sign of other countries catching up, but this is a job dependent on the student as much as the teacher. Children are not shoes. They talk back, the refuse, they have parents who cater to their whims and interfer, harming their children, and so on. So you miss the point to start with. Second, most of what has been done encourages teachers not to tackle tougher populations. It is easier to have results with a more motivated and disciplined population, which does well already. Forgien students do just fine, even in our low perfroming schools, not because teachers favor them, but because they have a different work ethic, and treat school differently. Instead parents who blame teachers, they take personal responsibility.

Now, this doesn't meant they're areas in need of improvement, or that we can't or shouldn't make changes. But it should be informed changes, and based on real research and not mistaken impressions and poorly informed political opnions.
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I agree about it being a sign that other nations are catching up, sometimes exponentially as economies rise. The problem IMO with "real research" driving change is that we never stop long enough to see what works and what does not. There is just too much research out there saying divergent things. I would rather we just trust our teachers to teach and for state and local governments to have more say in what happens in their borders than Washington operating on some statistical model devoid of the strengths and weaknesses of any given class on any given year.
 
Dittohead not! said:
It appears we're actually #37 in spending on education, not #1.

But, you're correct that simply spending more isn't going to necessarily improve things. What we need to do is:

Get rid of most of the layers of bureaucracy.
Use accurate methods of measuring student progress.
Use progress, rather than an arbitrary achievement standard, to measure success.
Hold parents, administrators, teachers, and students responsible for progress.
Quit pretending that every student is the same. Allow more choices.
Stop using the 19th. century model for the school year. Kids aren't needed on the farm in the summers any more. Schools need to go year around.
Give entering kindergarteners a readiness test. If they're not ready, put them in a pre kindergarten.
Start children of poverty in pre school at a much earlier age

That should be a good start. Most of it wouldn't cost a cent. The preschool and pre kindergarten idea would cost a little bit, but it would pay dividends.

That is a start, at least.
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I was referring to what we spend per student in grades K -12 it’s among the highest in the world

That aside thank you for your post, it’s just what I’m trying to get across . We need to fix the system of our education. Starting with things that should show improvement at little or no cost , then proceeding from there. If something needs to be tweaked to be improved and it costs money so be it. We just need to work on making things cost effective and efficient.

This does no apply to just our educational system, it applies to all our programs, they need to be designed to that they reach those that need it most and are cost efficient and effective ..

There is not one of your points that I disagree with … not only that but it opens a dialog .. Something that seldom happens here. So again .. .thanks for a post of such a nature.
 
clownboy said:
I'm not sure that chart is even close to accurate. Spending on education is not a federal endeavor. It is state by state with the feds chipping in with earmarked funding depending upon the state and sometimes even the locality.
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No, it is not a federal endeavor (a point forgotten by both candidates for president). That chart has to include state spending as well, or we'd be clear at the bottom.
 
Dittohead not! said:
No, it is not a federal endeavor (a point forgotten by both candidates for president). That chart has to include state spending as well, or we'd be clear at the bottom.
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I looked and I didn't see where it tells what it includes. Regardless, we have states that pay way more than other states per capita and some are as population dense as most of those countries ahead of us on the list. Also, it's by percentage of GDP.
 
clownboy said:
I looked and I didn't see where it tells what it includes. Regardless, we have states that pay way more than other states per capita and some are as population dense as most of those countries ahead of us on the list. Also, it's by percentage of GDP.
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True, some states pay a lot more than others.

There is a lot more to the equation than the total amount of money spent anyway. There is the matter of how efficiently it is spent, for one thing, but the biggest factor is demographics: How many of the children are non English speakers? How many of them come from educated parents?

The best predictor of success in school is not the school, not the amount of money spent, but the mother's educational level.

But, the original issue was whether the US spends more than any other nation on education. It appears that is not the case.
 
Fisher said:
I agree about it being a sign that other nations are catching up, sometimes exponentially as economies rise. The problem IMO with "real research" driving change is that we never stop long enough to see what works and what does not. There is just too much research out there saying divergent things. I would rather we just trust our teachers to teach and for state and local governments to have more say in what happens in their borders than Washington operating on some statistical model devoid of the strengths and weaknesses of any given class on any given year.
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This is true. I was at a conference this week and listened to a department of Ed representative for the state of Iowa. We have a republican governor, and this person identified himself as republican. He spoke a lot about the need to act only when supported by research, and admitted that this would be hard for conservatives as there was no REAL evidence that school choice or vouchers had any positive effect on education. Later when I go over my notes, I'll see if there is anything to link on that. But he knew conservatives would not like that.
 
Boo Radley said:
This is true. I was at a conference this week and listened to a department of Ed representative for the state of Iowa. We have a republican governor, and this person identified himself as republican. He spoke a lot about the need to act only when supported by research, and admitted that this would be hard for conservatives as there was no REAL evidence that school choice or vouchers had any positive effect on education. Later when I go over my notes, I'll see if there is anything to link on that. But he knew conservatives would not like that.
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Ofcourse there isn't...Why would educrats cut their own throats by putting a study out there they know will show how woefully inadequate todays public schools are when compared to free market school choice?
 
j-mac said:
Ofcourse there isn't...Why would educrats cut their own throats by putting a study out there they know will show how woefully inadequate todays public schools are when compared to free market school choice?
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For him, it would make no difference. He's a republican, working for a republican governor who wants to go that way, who in no way is effected by the result. That was the point. But then again, how much does your belief rely on actual factual information? I'm sure you can find a source to say what you want. Weekly Standard? American Thinker? NRO? All sources who really try to present factual, well researched studies. :coffeepap
 
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