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The two biggest lies

Bobcat said:
well if the shoe fits-----------

you statements that the economy has improved just prove that you are either not awake or a pawn of the left. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you have been sleeping for the last 4 years.
Click to expand...

If you're really calling me a pawn for the left go ahead and read through my posts. I try to give all credit where credit is due.

Yes, the last 4 years have not been awesome years, you would literally have to be asleep to believe that, but again..that's not what I said. We're talking about how the economy is RIGHT NOW and place that against how the economy was exactly 4 years ago... Things aren't great right now and I never said they were. In my opinion gaining jobs each month (whether it is keeping up with population increase or not...) is better than decreasing jobs numbers.

Is Obama the person to give credit to for the economy? No, neither are the republicans, or the democrats, the public officials we all voted in did a minimal job of working on jobs and the economy one way or another, but they would have gotten thrown out of office if they didn't even attempt the minimal amount of legislating needed to see progress.

You make a good point about the debt and hell yeah that's a scarry number, but we have to do something, and welfare programs aren't going to fix it, neither are tax cuts.

This is a global recession and we have 3 ways to basically go about it:

1) We need something to fill the gaps in revenue from overseas, I honestly don't believe this is possible

2) We have to wait it out, get as stable an economy as we possibly can and hope they get their acts together soon

3) We help bring them out of it (basically nationbuild europe...yeah..great idea....)

I honestly don't know what the answer is, but again I wasn't debating all that, but you seemed insistent that we go deeper so there you go.
 
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Gee, where did shiang run off to?

Stats got your tongue?
 
KopeAcetic said:
If you're really calling me a pawn for the left go ahead and read through my posts. I try to give all credit where credit is due.

Yes, the last 4 years have not been awesome years, you would literally have to be asleep to believe that, but again..that's not what I said. We're talking about how the economy is RIGHT NOW and place that against how the economy was exactly 4 years ago... Things aren't great right now and I never said they were. In my opinion gaining jobs each month (whether it is keeping up with population increase or not...) is better than decreasing jobs numbers.

Is Obama the person to give credit to for the economy? No, neither are the republicans, or the democrats, the public officials we all voted in did a minimal job of working on jobs and the economy one way or another, but they would have gotten thrown out of office if they didn't even attempt the minimal amount of legislating needed to see progress.

You make a good point about the debt and hell yeah that's a scarry number, but we have to do something, and welfare programs aren't going to fix it, neither are tax cuts.

This is a global recession and we have 3 ways to basically go about it:

1) We need something to fill the gaps in revenue from overseas, I honestly don't believe this is possible

2) We have to wait it out, get as stable an economy as we possibly can and hope they get their acts together soon

3) We help bring them out of it (basically nationbuild europe...yeah..great idea....)

I honestly don't know what the answer is, but again I wasn't debating all that, but you seemed insistent that we go deeper so there you go.
Click to expand...

I guess my only point is that a continuation of the obama policies will not work, and for the record, keeping tax rates the same is not a tax cut for the rich.

however, a cut in the corporate tax rate would help, our corporate tax rate is the highest in the world and we wonder why companies are leaving?

Making the USA the most attractive place for business would help a great deal, opening up our energy resources would put millions to work. Here in La there are empty businesses that once were thriving supporting the offshore oil industry. Why not put those people back to work and stop buying oil from the mid east where they hate us?

the fixes are not really that complex, the problem is the liberal mindset that came in with obama, that must change or we are done.
 
Zyphlin said:
Neither statement is an outright lie depending on what factors they wish to use to define "better" or "worse". On whether "4 years ago" is literally 4 years ago (meaning we're back in Bush's term in office), referring to Obama's term, or referring to some other specific time period after Obama's term started. And on whether you're speaking about "jobs" in the notion of hard number positions available or as a percentage of the total population. Those two statements, without context, are not unequivocally true OR false.
Click to expand...

Okay so let's not use 4 years, let's use 3/12. Will that make it true for you?
 
Bobcat said:
I guess my only point is that a continuation of the obama policies will not work, and for the record, keeping tax rates the same is not a tax cut for the rich.

however, a cut in the corporate tax rate would help, our corporate tax rate is the highest in the world and we wonder why companies are leaving?

Making the USA the most attractive place for business would help a great deal, opening up our energy resources would put millions to work. Here in La there are empty businesses that once were thriving supporting the offshore oil industry. Why not put those people back to work and stop buying oil from the mid east where they hate us?

the fixes are not really that complex, the problem is the liberal mindset that came in with obama, that must change or we are done.
Click to expand...

I've heard from a few sources that the effective corporate tax rate is near the bottom-mid once you take into account tax credits and "loopholes." I can't say if this is true or not, the tax system is so damn complex an dififcult to navigate, especially the corporate tax system. I'm definitely for simplifying the tax code and making the tax rate lower than it currently is by a lot, but keeping it revenue neutral by closing the loopholes and minimizing the deductions, this would actually be best for small businesses because big corporations are the ones that can utilize what most people are calling to remove.

Making the US look good for businesses isn't just about tax rates, it's about profits and would it benefit them. We need a better way to incentivise companies to move HQs and some manufacturing back to the US (this has actually increased slightly as of late because of increased wages in china and increased demand for US products). I don't think tax cuts are the only way to do this, we can do a lot more, but it definitely needs to be done.

That's not all we have to do though, the companies that are here (and have an excess surplus) haven't actually devoted that money to hiring workers because:

1) Worker productivity is up something like 20% (I don't think this is the actual figure, it's somewhere like 18-25%) from the last 4 years
2) They have no idea what the markets are going to be like, so they're keeping money so they can invest at a better profit later when the markets recover

This is a complex issue and one or two simple bumper sticker slogans aren't going to fix it.
 
Grim17 said:
Do you realize that there are only 86,000 more people employed today then there was the day he took office, while at the same time there are nearly 9 million more people in the eligible workforce?

To put that into perspective, lets assume that every person who was employed when he took office, is still employed today. That means that of the 8,827,000 people that have been added to the eligible workforce due to population growth since January 2009, less than 1% of them (0.97%) are employed?

Is this what you call a recovery?
Click to expand...

From another thread:

pbrauer said:
Do you realize that when President Obama took office we were in a deep recession which wasn't officially over until June? :roll:


Employment, Hours, and Earnings from the Current Employment Statistics survey (National)
1-Month Net Change

Series Id: CES0000000001
Seasonally Adjusted
Super Sector: Total nonfarm
Industry: Total nonfarm
NAICS Code: -
Data Type: ALL EMPLOYEES, THOUSANDS
Years: 2009 to 2012

YearJanFebMarAprMayJunJulAugSepOctNovDec
2009-818-724-799-692-361-482-339-231-199-202-42-171
2010-40-35189239516-167-58-51-27220121120
201111022024625154849685202112157223
201227525914368874514196
Click to expand...
 
Grim17 said:
Well, there are definitely less people employed today then there was 4 years ago and only 86 thousand more than the day Obama took office. Too bad the population and number of eligible workers hasn't stayed the same, or things might actually look ok:

View attachment 67133942
Click to expand...
Labor Force is not the number of people employed. It's the number of people employed plus the number of people who are looking for a job.
 
Three biggest lies routinely told-

The check is in the mail

I will pull out in time

Honest Sheriff, I was just HELPING that sheep over the fence! :3oops:

I suppose you can play games with when to start time in order to ask if you are better off. Seems awfully artificial and a bit of political posturing, not a real debate, slogans over substance.

It does take a special kind of partisanship to look at a few numbers and claim there is no recovery. it is to forget just what was happening when the Republicans were finally pried out of the White House. it is to ignore just how dismal our economy was as Obama took the oath of office and unlike video games the national economy doesn't have a reset button.

Some in here are upset our economy isn't back to pre-crash, some opine over heated, numbers.

Some in here are upset the economy wasn't allowed to free fall and a new economy be built from the rubble.

Some in here would bitch if they were hung with a new rope. :roll:
 
Times are still tough things are by no means great every one's still feeling anxious, but people are quick to forget.

Not sure how many of you remember what it was like when Bush left office and Chaney rolled out in a wheel chair. 2 of 3 auto industries was about to go bankrupt, stocks were free falling, house prices plummeted, companies were cutting and closing left and right.

Most agree Romney's more extreme than Bush so as if the first roller coaster ride wasn't big enough they want a bigger one.
 
pbrauer said:
From another thread:
Click to expand...

These stats do NOT show employment figures when Obama took office in 2008.... I say 2008!!!
so that this is just a TYPICAL OBAMA/LIBERAL OBFUSCATION & DEFLECTION of the TRUTH .


Also, Factor in the Population Growth and even that would probably show that the % unemployment growth or employment growth stats show how CATASTROPHIC the Obama Agenda is after spending $5+TRILLION in 4 years when Dubya spent LESS than Obama's $5+ TRILLION IN EIGHT (8) YEARS !!!.....i.e. thus Obama spent more than TWICE.... I say.... more than TWICE what Bush did in 4 years !!!

By that I mean that the Preposterous Agenda of CRIMINAL SPENDING by Obama on most every large voting block ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF MONEY ON THE BASIS OF: VOTE FOR ME & GET MOOLAH !!!

Obama's Preposterous Agenda resulted in ALL....I say ALL polls WITHOUT EXCEPTION on every IMPORTANT FACET of the Economy that unequivocally show that we are worse off NOW then we were when Obama took office.

The rest of the juggling of the TRUTH with thisa & thata DOES NOT NEGATE THE ABOVE,

Why doesn't Shiang and the rest of you Obama Surrogates take Shiang's ARROGANTLY POMPOUS DENIAL OF THE TRUTH....which may be construed as a BLATANT LIE ...... and shove it where the sun don't shine .
 
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pbrauer said:
Labor Force is not the number of people employed. It's the number of people employed plus the number of people who are looking for a job.
Click to expand...

I didn't use the labor force numbers, I used the number of people employed.

employed.jpg
 
HoongLoong said:
These stats do NOT show employment figures when Obama took office in 2008.... I say 2008!!!
so that this is just a TYPICAL OBAMA/LIBERAL OBFUSCATION & DEFLECTION of the TRUTH .


Also, Factor in the Population Growth and even that would probably show that the % unemployment growth or employment growth stats show how CATASTROPHIC the Obama Agenda is after spending $5+TRILLION in 4 years when Dubya spent LESS than Obama's $5+ TRILLION IN EIGHT (8) YEARS !!!.....i.e. thus Obama spent more than TWICE.... I say.... more than TWICE what Bush did in 4 years !!!

By that I mean that the Preposterous Agenda of CRIMINAL SPENDING by Obama on most every large voting block ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF MONEY ON THE BASIS OF: VOTE FOR ME & GET MOOLAH !!!

Obama's Preposterous Agenda resulted in ALL....I say ALL polls WITHOUT EXCEPTION on every IMPORTANT FACET of the Economy that unequivocally show that we are worse off NOW then we were when Obama took office.

The rest of the juggling of the TRUTH with thisa & thata DOES NOT NEGATE THE ABOVE,

Why doesn't Shiang and the rest of you Obama Surrogates take Shiang's ARROGANTLY POMPOUS DENIAL OF THE TRUTH....which may be construed as a BLATANT LIE ...... and shove it where the sun don't shine .
Click to expand...
So you believe Obama took office in 2008, that's just too funny. LMMFAO

BTW, do you realize that certain unusual words you use can be Googled and noticed that somebody who uses them with the same syntax has been banned at lease two forums?
 
code1211 said:
The latest month for which the BLS lists stats is July 2012. Total employed in the USA is 142,220,000.

Same month four years ago was July, 2008. At that time in that year, Total employed was 145,819,000.

You are are factually incorrect. Ignorant or disingenuous?

There were 3.5 million more employed and 11 million fewer alive. The household income average of the USA is down by $4,000 per house.

If you are in love with the Big 0, I can understand that, Why lie about his record?

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/empsit_08012008.pdf
Click to expand...

Why doesn't Shiang who is so "PERPLEXED" about OUR "LIES" justify HIS LIES when faced with Code 1121's irrefutable facts.

And, the justification will be UNACCEPTABLE if Shiang starts weaseling out by ignoring Code 1221's stats and starts obfuscating the TRUTH with stats on some other facet of Obama's Preposterous Agenda ...like, perhaps, America is better off now because Aunt Jemima's pancakes are sold more NOW, under Obama, than when they were sold under Dubya.

Oh oh....... I used Aunt Jemima as an example !!!!! I MUST BE RACIST !!!

OMG !!! ARREST ME !!!! MEA CULPA !!!!
 
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pbrauer said:
So you believe Obama took office in 2008, that's just too funny. LMMFAO

BTW, do you realize that certain unusual words you use can be Googled and noticed that somebody who uses them with the same syntax has been banned at lease two forums?
Click to expand...

SORRY !!!

I was looking at Code 1211's quoted STATS where his data started on JULY 20 2008, and INADVERTENTLY, MISTAKENLY, without thinking, I used that as a basis when Obama took office.......which is of course an ERROR. Obama was sworn in sometime in January, 2009

That does not invalidate Code 1221's quoted stats about employment/unemployment because pbrauers stats of 2009 are way into 2009 ..... way after Jan 2009 when Obama took office.

PLUS Grim 17's QUOTED STATS make pbrauer's suck.
 
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KopeAcetic said:
I didn't say Obama did a great job, I was just debating his points. In most (if not all) debatable facets, the economy is better now than when Obama took office.
Click to expand...



Actually, the economy was still diving downward when Obama took office. The slide continued until June of 09 when the recovery began. Obviously, too soon for anything obama did to have an effect.

Through his diligence, the economy has continued to sputter along recovering a little during the Cash for Clunkers, but dropping again. We've had three Summers of Recovery so far. Vote this incompetent ideologue out and we'll see the economy turn on a dime in February, 2013.
 
Grim17 said:
Well, there are definitely less people employed today then there was 4 years ago and only 86 thousand more than the day Obama took office. Too bad the population and number of eligible workers hasn't stayed the same, or things might actually look ok:

View attachment 67133942
Click to expand...



The labor force has actually shrunk dramatically since obama took office as he has wrung the hope out of the people. That's the biggest change he's brought.

If the labor force had not shrunk in real numbers, the U3 would be around 9.3 and if it had actually grown to match the population growth, it would be over 10.
 
Bobcat said:
But its not. the country is further in debt, housing values are down, unemployment is up, inflation is up, gas prices have doubled, grocery prices are up.

Nothing is better, wake up.
Click to expand...


You left out that household income is down by $4000/year.

If things "improve" any more, we'll all be starving in the streets. But at least we'll know that the Big 0 really, really cares about us. Biden, too.
 
KopeAcetic said:
Please stop with the wake up crap, that's ridiculous, both the left and the right say that and it only shows that you have a one sided, closed mind.

If you want to get into a debate I'm fine with that, in fact that's the whole reason I'm here, but statements like that, yeah I don't think there's any point in actually debating individuals that are obviously not even open to new ideas.
Click to expand...




That's what you took from that? That ringing you hear is the alarm clock. Be alarmed.
 
KopeAcetic said:
If you're really calling me a pawn for the left go ahead and read through my posts. I try to give all credit where credit is due.

Yes, the last 4 years have not been awesome years, you would literally have to be asleep to believe that, but again..that's not what I said. We're talking about how the economy is RIGHT NOW and place that against how the economy was exactly 4 years ago... Things aren't great right now and I never said they were. In my opinion gaining jobs each month (whether it is keeping up with population increase or not...) is better than decreasing jobs numbers.

Is Obama the person to give credit to for the economy? No, neither are the republicans, or the democrats, the public officials we all voted in did a minimal job of working on jobs and the economy one way or another, but they would have gotten thrown out of office if they didn't even attempt the minimal amount of legislating needed to see progress.

You make a good point about the debt and hell yeah that's a scarry number, but we have to do something, and welfare programs aren't going to fix it, neither are tax cuts.

This is a global recession and we have 3 ways to basically go about it:

1) We need something to fill the gaps in revenue from overseas, I honestly don't believe this is possible

2) We have to wait it out, get as stable an economy as we possibly can and hope they get their acts together soon

3) We help bring them out of it (basically nationbuild europe...yeah..great idea....)

I honestly don't know what the answer is, but again I wasn't debating all that, but you seemed insistent that we go deeper so there you go.
Click to expand...




Whether we like it or not, and obama obviously does not, The USA is world leader in just about everything. If the world economy is to improve, the USA economy will lead it. Look what happened to the world when our econjomy went in the dumper.

Look, the simple truth is that the Big 0 is not a capable President. He's a great spokesman and I would eagerly buy a Sham Wow from him.

You may not think that a president has any impact on the economy, but you're thinking in that case would be wrong. We need to get rid of him and make way for a guy who has the respect of others and the ability to do the job.

Nothing complex here. We know that one guy absolutely cannot help. We know that the other guy might be able to help. Maybe is at least something and something beats nothing every time.
 
Bobcat said:
I guess my only point is that a continuation of the obama policies will not work, and for the record, keeping tax rates the same is not a tax cut for the rich.

however, a cut in the corporate tax rate would help, our corporate tax rate is the highest in the world and we wonder why companies are leaving?

Making the USA the most attractive place for business would help a great deal, opening up our energy resources would put millions to work. Here in La there are empty businesses that once were thriving supporting the offshore oil industry. Why not put those people back to work and stop buying oil from the mid east where they hate us?

the fixes are not really that complex, the problem is the liberal mindset that came in with obama, that must change or we are done.
Click to expand...



Here in Indianapolis, a newcomer (from a different planet) might suppose that the biggest corporation around here is named "Available". That sign is on half the buildings in town.
 
KopeAcetic said:
I've heard from a few sources that the effective corporate tax rate is near the bottom-mid once you take into account tax credits and "loopholes." I can't say if this is true or not, the tax system is so damn complex an dififcult to navigate, especially the corporate tax system. I'm definitely for simplifying the tax code and making the tax rate lower than it currently is by a lot, but keeping it revenue neutral by closing the loopholes and minimizing the deductions, this would actually be best for small businesses because big corporations are the ones that can utilize what most people are calling to remove.

Making the US look good for businesses isn't just about tax rates, it's about profits and would it benefit them. We need a better way to incentivise companies to move HQs and some manufacturing back to the US (this has actually increased slightly as of late because of increased wages in china and increased demand for US products). I don't think tax cuts are the only way to do this, we can do a lot more, but it definitely needs to be done.

That's not all we have to do though, the companies that are here (and have an excess surplus) haven't actually devoted that money to hiring workers because:

1) Worker productivity is up something like 20% (I don't think this is the actual figure, it's somewhere like 18-25%) from the last 4 years
2) They have no idea what the markets are going to be like, so they're keeping money so they can invest at a better profit later when the markets recover

This is a complex issue and one or two simple bumper sticker slogans aren't going to fix it.
Click to expand...



I don't have a fortune in hand, but I do have a small sum of money to invest and it's a frightening thing to roll the dice. I'm not going to do so until i have a little better notion of what the future might be.

Right now, all I'm being promised is that if I do make any money on an investment I will be subject to a knee jerk tax increase on it shortly after the profit is made.

Good for me!
 
notquiteright said:
Three biggest lies routinely told-

The check is in the mail

I will pull out in time

Honest Sheriff, I was just HELPING that sheep over the fence! :3oops:

I suppose you can play games with when to start time in order to ask if you are better off. Seems awfully artificial and a bit of political posturing, not a real debate, slogans over substance.

It does take a special kind of partisanship to look at a few numbers and claim there is no recovery. it is to forget just what was happening when the Republicans were finally pried out of the White House. it is to ignore just how dismal our economy was as Obama took the oath of office and unlike video games the national economy doesn't have a reset button.

Some in here are upset our economy isn't back to pre-crash, some opine over heated, numbers.

Some in here are upset the economy wasn't allowed to free fall and a new economy be built from the rubble.

Some in here would bitch if they were hung with a new rope. :roll:
Click to expand...



Some in here are partisan hacks who would compliment Obama even if the unemployment rate went over 8% on his watch and stayed there every day ever since.
 
shiang said:
Times are still tough things are by no means great every one's still feeling anxious, but people are quick to forget.

Not sure how many of you remember what it was like when Bush left office and Chaney rolled out in a wheel chair. 2 of 3 auto industries was about to go bankrupt, stocks were free falling, house prices plummeted, companies were cutting and closing left and right.

Most agree Romney's more extreme than Bush so as if the first roller coaster ride wasn't big enough they want a bigger one.
Click to expand...




More extreme than Bush.

What does that mean? Could you please do a little compare and contrast on the positions that demonstrate the truth in this statement?
 
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