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Thread: What makes a "True Conservative"

  1. #251
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    Re: What makes a "True Conservative"

    Quote Originally Posted by presluc View Post
    You don't have to give me anything it's true
    What used to be Bilcor is now a parking lot
    What used to be Mark 1 is now a fast food
    Telefex a retail store going out of business
    Wagner they may be a Wagner in Chino California today but in 1980 Wagners contracts went to Mexico.

    You have ask for my info I have tried to provide it, all you have to do is provide your info to me.

    How many nonunion factory shops were outsourced between 2000 and 2008?
    Perhaps your answer is none or I don't know or there is no way to obtain that info?
    It will be what I expect but at least it will be more than you have given.
    Ahh I see, what you are saying is that you can claim anything you want, and the naysayer has to prove your wrong before you will provide anything.
    Link something about Bilcore, the name of the Mark 1 injection molding plant (which is a lot of plants), and Wagner.

    My sources? I googled them to find some background on the vaeracity of your claims. If you were just going to use anecdotal evidence for all this, just say its anecdotal. Dont then claim I need to provide sources before you provide...any.

    Dude, YOU are making the claim. How about you quit being lazy about proving or disproving YOUR claims? Go dig up some info on your claims, dont toss the burden of proof on the guy saying I dont believe you. Its up to you to make a case before you get to demand openers from rebuttal.

  2. #252
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    Re: What makes a "True Conservative"

    Moderator's Warning:
    Enough with the personal attacks.
    Welfare (Food Stamps, WIC, etc...) are not entitlements. They are taxpayer funded handouts and shouldn't be called entitlements at all. Social Security and Veteran's benefits are 'Entitlements' because the people receiving them are entitled to them. They were earned and paid for by the recipients.

  3. #253
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    Re: What makes a "True Conservative"

    Quote Originally Posted by presluc View Post
    Chrysler used "foreign cheap labor" to compete,
    Who owns the majority of stocks in Chrysler today?

    GMC used "cheap foreign labor" to compete.
    How much money did they need from bailouts from the government to keep from losing their company in 2008?

    Do these two companies have anything in common?
    At one time GM and Chrysler competed quite well. What happened?

    In fact so did Packard, American Motors, Studebaker, and a long list of other companies in various sectors. All you need do is record the companies of the 40's and 50's and see how many of them disappeared. Why is that?

  4. #254
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    Re: What makes a "True Conservative"

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    At one time GM and Chrysler competed quite well. What happened?

    In fact so did Packard, American Motors, Studebaker, and a long list of other companies in various sectors. All you need do is record the companies of the 40's and 50's and see how many of them disappeared. Why is that?
    Studebaker... sweeeeet...

    It's no surprise that companies fail, relocate, merge, get bought out, file for bankruptcy, or find a way to succeed on their own by restructuring to maintain competitiveness by building on their strengths and adapting to fit to modern times... I don't think anyone can disagree the best of the options is for them to succeed on their own.

    However, in a free market enterprises don't get bought out by the government or have the government force them to merge with (and get bought out by) a foreign company. Nor does the president use that company's campaign slogan in his State of the Union speech. Those companies also dont get bought out by the workers union (which is only around still because of government money, as well).

    At a time, when one company restructured on their own, using innovative approaches, and succeeded its absurd that the government would be backing and trumpeting the cause of another company in that same field, that needed billions from the government, wasted them, then needed more, and were bought out by the government.

    Necessity is the mother of invention, but consequence is the father of adaptation.

    When company's that fail arent given consequences, but are rewarded by the government, then we don't move forward as a society at the pace which life is meant to in order to survive in nature.

    If this president wanted America to recover, he would be trumpeting the cause of the successful company, that didn't take billions in taxpayer money, but found innovative ways to find its own capital, adapted on its own, and recovered to thrive... Then, other companies would follow that example.

    Instead, American companies have become like the ducks that won't fly south to avoid the cold winter, and now are dying in number, because they've become too dependent on the people who fed them at the pond.

  5. #255
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    Re: What makes a "True Conservative"

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    At one time GM and Chrysler competed quite well. What happened?
    A lot of things happened. Management was shortsightedly stupid and instead of agreeing to pay raises, which would have affected next year's profits, they kicked the can down the road, agreeing to all sorts of long-term benefits that would affect the next management team's numbers. They also stupidly failed to recognize the importance of small, fuel efficient cars, which allowed the Japanese imports to eat their lunch. And they generally designed crappy cars that no one wanted to buy. And the union made all sorts of unreasonable demands.

    Claiming that it was *just* the union's fault is ludicrous.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

  6. #256
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    Re: What makes a "True Conservative"

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    A lot of things happened. Management was shortsightedly stupid and instead of agreeing to pay raises, which would have affected next year's profits, they kicked the can down the road, agreeing to all sorts of long-term benefits that would affect the next management team's numbers.
    So is it your contention that they should have agreed to further pay raises and ignored the profit motive? Who was demanding those long term benefits?

    They also stupidly failed to recognize the importance of small, fuel efficient cars, which allowed the Japanese imports to eat their lunch. And they generally designed crappy cars at no one wanted to buy. And the union made all sorts of unreasonable demands.
    They cut the quality of the vehicles in order to meet the financial demands of the unions. As a result of labor costs, and the inflexibility of the unions, they could no longer compete with foreign manufacturers. Right to work states can.
    Claiming that it was *just* the union's fault is ludicrous.
    Perhaps management should have shut down the industry for a year or so to give the unions and their members an insight into what would happen if they don't compete. Now those jobs are gone forever.

  7. #257
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    Re: What makes a "True Conservative"

    [QUOTE=Grant;1060364800]

    So is it your contention that they should have agreed to further pay raises and ignored the profit motive? Who was demanding those long term benefits?
    False dichotomy. Giving pay raises and giving long-term benefits both affect profits. The difference is that pay raises have an immediate affect, and are easier to adust in response to market conditions. But you know, if you're in management and your bonus depends on how the numbers look RIGHT NOW, you're going to be inclined to push those expenses down the road. So what if it brings the company down in 25 years? By then you'll be a multi-millionaire and you can escape with your golden parachute.

    They cut the quality of the vehicles in order to meet the financial demands of the unions. As a result of labor costs, and the inflexibility of the unions, they could no longer compete with foreign manufacturers. Right to work states can.
    I don't think so. The Big Three was highly profitable back in the 70s and 80s when imports started kicking their asses. It was crappy design more than crappy materials. Are you old enough to remember the Mustang II? It failed because Ford didn't understand the market -- not because they skimped on the materials. You could hardly dent the body panels on that car with a Louisville Slugger, while you could literally dent the hood of an Accord with the pressure of your hand.


    Perhaps management should have shut down the industry for a year or so to give the unions and their members an insight into what would happen if they don't compete. Now those jobs are gone forever.
    Thanks to the bailouts those jobs didn't go anywhere.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

  8. #258
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    Re: What makes a "True Conservative"

    [QUOTE=AdamT;1060365231]
    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post

    .




    Thanks to the bailouts those jobs didn't go anywhere.

    Do you really believe that the cars sold by GM and Chrysler would not have been built by someone? Demand this year for autos is expected to be about 14.5 million, so would these cars and trucks been built without creating jobs at whomever picked up these assets?

  9. #259
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    Re: What makes a "True Conservative"

    [QUOTE=washunut;1060365243]
    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post


    Do you really believe that the cars sold by GM and Chrysler would not have been built by someone? Demand this year for autos is expected to be about 14.5 million, so would these cars and trucks been built without creating jobs at whomever picked up these assets?
    Sure, they would have been built by someone. But "someone" would have employed fewer US workers and sent more profits out of the country.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

  10. #260
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    Re: What makes a "True Conservative"

    [QUOTE=AdamT;1060365262]
    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post

    Sure, they would have been built by someone. But "someone" would have employed fewer US workers and sent more profits out of the country.
    In all probability the "someone" would have been some vulture investor that picked up the assets on the cheap and the SAME workers would be building those cars.

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