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Rick Santorum lying his way up

1Perry said:
I find it really sad that one must get their wishes to not be killed notorized and are forced to carry it around with them.



There are all sorts of information that states otherwise. Besides, if this was the case there would be no need for the card would there?



Because you say so?



Because you say so?
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Do not distort what I am saying please. I said people do not carry cards or anything with them to avoid being killed by doctors. I said some people have living wills made in the Netherlands to make sure their wishes are complied with or known when they are not able to make them known any more. And I know for a fact that this happens in the US also. These advanced health care directives are NOT "do not kill me cards, do not kill me bracelets".

Secondly, just because some sources say dutch patients are involuntarily murdered by their doctors does not make it so and statistics and evidence prove this.

And yes, because I say so as a dutch person I know for a fact that Santorum lies about there being "do not kill me bracelets". And yes, because I know about do not perfrom CPR medals are real.
 
this is scary.....I thought GWB was a poor choice for all his blunders, but he got elected anyway.....
now I am thinking Rick is the biggest blunderbuss of them all.....
No way that clown beats Obama....the USA hasn't gotten dumbed down enough yet....
wait, back to Bush, he got elected....
man we are in deep doodoo....
 
Nietreanimerenpenning2.jpg

and here it is, the do not perform CPR medal.

On the front it says: do not resuscitate me

On the back it says: I forbid anyone, under all circumstances to perform any kind of resuscitation on me
 
Tythor Zeth said:
I just read that the Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum said that the elderly in the Netherlands are involuntarily euthanized. Santorum made ​​the statement earlier this month during a panel discussion in a church in the state of Missouri, as evidenced by pictures that surfaced today. He said that 10 percent of the fatalities in the Netherlands are caused by euthanasia. Figures show that in reality, this is a little over two percent. Moreover, he said that half of the euthanasia cases in the Netherlands is involuntary. The truth is that you have to go through a lot of trouble to become eligible for euthanasia and it is therefore nearly impossible to get euthanized involuntary. He claims that involuntary euthanasia is the reason why Dutch elderly are afraid to go to Dutch hospitals and are therefore going to hospitals abroad. Furthermore, in the interview he said that Dutch elderly carry straps with the text: "Don't euthanize me". I have no idea how people can actually believe that, but apparently they do.

All of the statements by Rick Santorum listed above are far from the truth. What I am wondering is, how can you believe in a man that has to lie in order to convince people of his believes? If he thinks his believes are the best ones, he should be able to convince the voters with his true arguments.

Yours faithfully,
a Dutch citizen
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Thanks for the post.

It's embarrassing that he's the best the GOP has to offer the U.S.

The Party of Lincoln has sunk to a new low.
 
Peter King said:
Do not distort what I am saying please. I said people do not carry cards or anything with them to avoid being killed by doctors. I said some people have living wills made in the Netherlands to make sure their wishes are complied with or known when they are not able to make them known any more. And I know for a fact that this happens in the US also. These advanced health care directives are NOT "do not kill me cards, do not kill me bracelets".
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Nobody in the U.S. is concerned about being euthanized against their wishes.

Journal Of Medical Ethics. Not some pro-life or anti euthanasia site.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC479162/pdf/jmedeth00002-0020.pdf

It happens. Doctors kill people without any consent on the part of those being killed. Now again, this isn't a problem but Santorum getting some facts wrong is?

Secondly, just because some sources say dutch patients are involuntarily murdered by their doctors does not make it so and statistics and evidence prove this.
Click to expand...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC479162/pdf/jmedeth00002-0020.pdf

And yes, because I say so as a dutch person I know for a fact that Santorum lies about there being "do not kill me bracelets". And yes, because I know about do not perfrom CPR medals are real.
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Bracelets, notorized cards......whatever. This isn't the problem.
 
Amigo said:
And why would he lie about that?
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Very simple: he wants to win the election, and in order to win the election, he needs to convince people of his believes. He is against euthanasia and it is therefore very useful to him to convince others to be against euthanasia by saying that it works horribly in The Netherlands. The truth is that it works like a charm. People who do not want to live any further because they will die within, let's say, a month, but will need to go through useless extreme amounts of pain, have the choice to end their live without that horrible suffering. The mother of a good friend of mine had incurable cancer and would have had to go through immense useless pain had she not been given the oppertunity to get euthanized. I am very glad that she did not have to go through that, not only for her, but also for her family and friends. And like Peter King explained before, you cannot just get euthanized easily.

1Perry, what I am saying is that Rick Santorum lied about euthanasia in The Netherlands. The facts are here. Using figures from 20 years ago is about the same as lying because they simply couldn't be correct when he gave that interview, especially when you take the new laws into consideration. Now if that were the only thing he said, I wouldn't have made this thread in the first place, but everything he said was far from the truth and that is why I published this here. I am not going to explain to you why he lied because Peter King already did, but it looks like you just don't want to believe us no matter what we say.
 
Tythor Zeth said:
1Perry, what I am saying is that Rick Santorum lied about euthanasia in The Netherlands. The facts are here. Using figures from 20 years ago is about the same as lying because they simply couldn't be correct when he gave that interview, especially when you take the new laws into consideration. Now if that were the only thing he said, I wouldn't have made this thread in the first place, but everything he said was far from the truth and that is why I published this here. I am not going to explain to you why he lied because Peter King already did, but it looks like you just don't want to believe us no matter what we say.
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He used information from biased sites. Just as Obama did with his SOTU speech when he got Alito so pissed. I have no idea why politicians want to do this as it does little to nothing for them, I just find it funny that some find that to be problem here and not that people are being killed against any wishes they had.

Do you have any updated stats? Seems that I can't find any.
 
1Perry said:
He used information from biased sites. Just as Obama did with his SOTU speech when he got Alito so pissed. I have no idea why politicians want to do this as it does little to nothing for them, I just find it funny that some find that to be problem here and not that people are being killed against any wishes they had.

Do you have any updated stats? Seems that I can't find any.
Click to expand...
there was a person working on new stats, but the Dutch govt killed him....:2razz:
 
1Perry said:
Nobody in the U.S. is concerned about being euthanized against their wishes.

Journal Of Medical Ethics. Not some pro-life or anti euthanasia site.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC479162/pdf/jmedeth00002-0020.pdf

It happens. Doctors kill people without any consent on the part of those being killed. Now again, this isn't a problem but Santorum getting some facts wrong is?



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC479162/pdf/jmedeth00002-0020.pdf



Bracelets, notorized cards......whatever. This isn't the problem.
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It is the problem, no bracelets or notarized documents (not cards) to prevent patients being murdered by their doctors but documents to specify wishes of a patient as to how they want to be treated when they can no longer speak for themselves. If you cannot see the diffence between the two than that is no my problem, sorry.

Also, data from 1990 and 1995 before the euthanasia laws were in place and based on interviews with some doctors reviewing the data of just over 6,000 of the 136,000 deaths and extrapolated data rather than actual data on which I am basing my claims.

Plus, even from those estimations 0,7% of all deaths are attributed to deaths without explicit requests. Not 5% as Santorum claims (making him wrong rather than lying I guess) or exaggeration but 7 times. And again, before the new euthanasia laws were in place. Euthanasia laws which make clear what is allowed and what is not allowed.

If Santorum had said 16 years ago 0.7 deaths are estmated to have been due to cases without explicit request than yes, he would have had a point. However he said this in 2012 when such practices are objectivably not happening. And the rest of my story stays the same, no bracelet "please don't kill me" (and no cards, no people afraid to be killed without asking), no fleeing elderly patients because because of the laws from 2001 it is crystal clear what things doctors have to comply with to avoid prosecution for mercy killing/murder.
 
1Perry said:
Am I to take that the problem here is that his percentages differ from the official ones and not that the government is killing people?
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That's about it.. :) I remember this was a hot topic on another forum way back and yes if you were old in Holland you were as good as dead..

Tim-
 
1Perry said:
He used information from biased sites. Just as Obama did with his SOTU speech when he got Alito so pissed. I have no idea why politicians want to do this as it does little to nothing for them, I just find it funny that some find that to be problem here and not that people are being killed against any wishes they had.

Do you have any updated stats? Seems that I can't find any.
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I looked around but I don't have any updated stats. All I know is that his stats are completely wrong in 2012, that the newspapers here says that statistics say it's 2% and that his other accusations are false as well.
Hicup said:
That's about it.. :) I remember this was a hot topic on another forum way back and yes if you were old in Holland you were as good as dead..

Tim-
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Could you give me a link to that topic? Every Dutch citizen, and I literally mean everyone that has a slight knowledge of euthanasia in The Netherlands can tell you that it is very hard to get euthanized here, so I am wondering how long ago that was.
 
back to the OP, RS being a liar......
I can admire a well spun lie, told by a talented liar, but RS is sorely lacking in talent.
He has become infected with the pus of his own pandering, now even HE beleives his lies....
 
1Perry said:
He used information from biased sites. Just as Obama did with his SOTU speech when he got Alito so pissed. I have no idea why politicians want to do this as it does little to nothing for them, I just find it funny that some find that to be problem here and not that people are being killed against any wishes they had.

Do you have any updated stats? Seems that I can't find any.
Click to expand...

Are you fluent in dutch? I am and I have read them.

Cases reported

The review commissions received in this reporting year (2010) 3126 cases of euthanasia.

Euthanasia and assisted suicide

In 2910 cases it was euthanasia (i.e. active euthanasia on the specific request by the patient) en in 182 cases it was assisted suicide and in 44 cases it was a combination of the two.

Doctors

In 2819 cases the reporting doctor was the G?P, in 193 cases it was a medical specialist in the hospital and in 115 cases it was a specialist in geriatrics and in 9 cases it was a specialist in training.

Diseases

The kind of condition can be specified as such:

cancer 2548
heart and vascular diseases 158
conditions of the nervous system 75
other conditions 237
combination of diseases 118

place of euthanasia

The places were euthanasia was performed was:
2499 cases happened at home
182 happened in the hospital
109 happened in an assisted care facility
127 in old peoples homes
219 in other places (hospices or with families)

End verdict

The commission is qualified to rule on all reported cases. In this year the commisions ruled that 9 of the reported cases did not fully comply with all rules as the law requires.

Time before ruling
The average time between the reporting of the euthanasia and the verdict on said case was on average 63 days

http://www.euthanasiecommissie.nl/doc/pdf/RTE jaarverslag 2010_29870.pdf

in Dutch, sorry, only exists in Dutch.
 
Peter King said:
It is the problem, no bracelets or notarized documents (not cards) to prevent patients being murdered by their doctors but documents to specify wishes of a patient as to how they want to be treated when they can no longer speak for themselves. If you cannot see the diffence between the two than that is no my problem, sorry.

Also, data from 1990 and 1995 before the euthanasia laws were in place and based on interviews with some doctors reviewing the data of just over 6,000 of the 136,000 deaths and extrapolated data rather than actual data on which I am basing my claims.
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This is concerning Belgium and not Denmark but unless someone can prove otherwise I'd be willing to bet that the actions are similiar. (and I have no reason to believe that the Canadian Medical Association Journal is some biased source).

Half of Belgium's euthanasia nurses admit to killing without consent | Mail Online

Plus, even from those estimations 0,7% of all deaths are attributed to deaths without explicit requests. Not 5% as Santorum claims (making him wrong rather than lying I guess) or exaggeration but 7 times. And again, before the new euthanasia laws were in place. Euthanasia laws which make clear what is allowed and what is not allowed.

If Santorum had said 16 years ago 0.7 deaths are estmated to have been due to cases without explicit request than yes, he would have had a point. However he said this in 2012 when such practices are objectivably not happening. And the rest of my story stays the same, no bracelet "please don't kill me" (and no cards, no people afraid to be killed without asking), no fleeing elderly patients because because of the laws from 2001 it is crystal clear what things doctors have to comply with to avoid prosecution for mercy killing/murder.
Click to expand...

Santorum is a fool for misrepresenting his position but I believe you are misrepresenting it also.
 
Tythor Zeth said:
I looked around but I don't have any updated stats. All I know is that his stats are completely wrong in 2012, that the newspapers here says that statistics say it's 2% and that his other accusations are false as well.

Could you give me a link to that topic? Every Dutch citizen, and I literally mean everyone that has a slight knowledge of euthanasia in The Netherlands can tell you that it is very hard to get euthanized here, so I am wondering how long ago that was.
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very true, of the 3126 cases of performed euthanasia there were about three times as many request for euthanasia, 1/3 as said led to euthanasia, 1/3 died before euthanasia could be considered or performed and in 1/3 of the cases the request of the patient was denied
 
Tythor Zeth said:
I looked around but I don't have any updated stats. All I know is that his stats are completely wrong in 2012, that the newspapers here says that statistics say it's 2% and that his other accusations are false as well.
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O.K. 2%. I find that even 2% are being killed to be more atrocious that Santorum saying it's higher than that.

Could you give me a link to that topic? Every Dutch citizen, and I literally mean everyone that has a slight knowledge of euthanasia in The Netherlands can tell you that it is very hard to get euthanized here, so I am wondering how long ago that was.
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He is likely speaking about forums from years ago. This has been discussed many times but not that I've seen recently.
 
Santorum has lied...whether by intention or not is up for debate. As a Dutch citizen I can attest to all that Peter King has written in this topic.

1Perry said:
Do you have any updated stats? Seems that I can't find any.
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1. Published in 2009: Vulnerability and the
2. Published in 2009: Two Decades of Research on Euthanasia from the Netherlands. What Have We Learnt and What Questions Remain?
3. Published in 2010 (only free abstract available): http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2753.2010.01394.x/abstract

Consent between the 3 above pubs: there is NO slippery slopen in the Netherlands concerning euthanasia!
 
Peter King said:
Are you fluent in dutch?
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Nope.

[/quote]The commission is qualified to rule on all reported cases. In this year the commisions ruled that 9 of the reported cases did not fully comply with all rules as the law requires. [/quote]

What was done in these cases?
 
1Perry said:
This is concerning Belgium and not Denmark but unless someone can prove otherwise I'd be willing to bet that the actions are similiar. (and I have no reason to believe that the Canadian Medical Association Journal is some biased source).

Half of Belgium's euthanasia nurses admit to killing without consent | Mail Online



Santorum is a fool for misrepresenting his position but I believe you are misrepresenting it also.
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Not Denmark, Netherlands. Not Belgium, the Netherlands. And no, Belgium is not the same as the Netherlands. Denmark doesn't even allow euthanasia.

And sorry for you, but I am representing facts whereas Santorum was not.
 
1Perry said:
Nope.
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The commission is qualified to rule on all reported cases. In this year the commisions ruled that 9 of the reported cases did not fully comply with all rules as the law requires. [/quote]

What was done in these cases?[/QUOTE]

I would have to read all the reports of all the evaluations comissions but in the report the cases (12) of the year 2009 were reviewed by both the prosecutors office and the Inspector general of health and in all cases they found that while not all stipulations were met both the prosecutors office as the inspector general said it was decided that no illegal actions had happened and they were sanctioned after judicial/criminal/medical review.
 
As a Dutch citizen I can attest to all reactions by Peter King in this topic (way to go Peter for setting the facts straight here!) Fact is that Santorum was lying...wthether by intention or not is up for debate.
 
Further reading as requested by 1Perry:

1. published in 2009: Vulnerability and the
2. published in 2009: Two Decades of Research on Euthanasia from the Netherlands. What Have We Learnt and What Questions Remain?
3. published in 2010 (albeit only a free abstract available): Should it be legal to assist suicide? - Lesser - 2010 - Journal of Evaluation in Clinical Practice - Wiley Online Library

Consent between the the 3 publications: concerning euthanasia there is NO slippery slope in the Netherlands!
 
Gizmo said:
As a Dutch citizen I can attest to all reactions by Peter King in this topic (way to go Peter for setting the facts straight here!) Fact is that Santorum was lying...wthether by intention or not is up for debate.
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he could have been wrong on statistics (really wrong and not really saying much for the attention to detail for a man who wants to run for the most important election position in the world) but the rest of his story is a pack of lies. No bracelets, no scared to death elderly and no fleeing of dutch elderly to other countries.

In fact, the people who have euthanasia performed the least are the over 80, most of them are younger cancer sufferers.
 
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