• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Obama's speech in Osawatomie, KS

Largey what you found in iraq, you lured there. And most were, as I said, fighting Saddam.

There was nothing to WIN in Iraq. Nor is there anything to WIN by invading any of these countries. As you acknowledge, no country attacked us. They didn't even stage their attacks from these countries. Nor were the people who attacked us from these countries. They came from our allies. So, it is hard to make any real connection to invading these countries to helping with terrorism at all. Especially when you consider how much our actions helped with recruitment. Our own assessment says not only that our acts helped with recruitment, but that those who trained and found in iraq will be huritng us for decades to come.

And this isn't politics. This is pragmatic realism. Bad **** happened before we came. It has happened while we were there, and it will happen after we leave. As I note in another thread, we did just what Penn State did. We watched the horrors, the killing, and did nothing until it was long over. Let them suffer under sanctions, and then as things were about to settle in for them, we brought war. We added injury toinjury, and without any real justification.

This was the fault of our leaders. Both sides of the isle lacked either the courage or the foresight and good judgment to plan a better way.

We cannot control what other countries do. Strong men and brutal tyrannts jump up all over the place, and we have shown no concern to stop them. We're rather inconcsistent, to say the least, in what we call worth fighting over. MLK once said the greatest priveyor of violence today was the US. Many look at our aggressive acts, many who love this country, love its people, and respect much of what is best about us and know that we should not be imperialistic. Reagan understood this. Conservatives used to understand this. Freedom cannot be given. It can only be taken. Help isn't doing it for someone, especially when they don't ask for it.
What I take from you is that you believe we should adopt the Ron Paul approach and just sit inside our borders and hope no one attacks us. Right? Wrong. These people, as has been said many times, don't hate us because of what we do. It may not help, but that isn't their main reason for hating us. They hate us because we're not Muslim. They hate us because we are "infidels". We could pull every troop home right now. We could have each Middle East country put a dollar figure on the table for us to pay to call it even. We could apologize to every one of them, wait, thats been done. It wouldn't matter. They hate us that bad. I know someone who hasn't dealt with these people can't understand that but its true. We did WIN in Iraq. Why? Saddam isn't there anymore, it is not a terrorist haven, they have a Republic in place, and their economy is picking up. That's a win in my book.
 
What I take from you is that you believe we should adopt the Ron Paul approach and just sit inside our borders and hope no one attacks us. Right? Wrong. These people, as has been said many times, don't hate us because of what we do. It may not help, but that isn't their main reason for hating us. They hate us because we're not Muslim. They hate us because we are "infidels". We could pull every troop home right now. We could have each Middle East country put a dollar figure on the table for us to pay to call it even. We could apologize to every one of them, wait, thats been done. It wouldn't matter. They hate us that bad. I know someone who hasn't dealt with these people can't understand that but its true. We did WIN in Iraq. Why? Saddam isn't there anymore, it is not a terrorist haven, they have a Republic in place, and their economy is picking up. That's a win in my book.

Nope. I ahve no problem proactively hitting actual terrorist. I have a problem invading on pretext a country that did not attack us or where an attack is not imminent. You do nothing to stop a terrorist in Pakistan or SA by invading Iraq. In fact, if you hold up in Iraq, you make it easier for him to attack us and hurt as. Remember, not only wasn't there an immediate attack after 9/11 (Iraq happened not months but years later), but between the first TT attack and 9/11, some 8-9 years passed. It's hard to attack us here. Much easier there. And in terms of cost, there got much for their effort. It could not have worked out better for them.

You have to win an argument. Not a war. As long as we're seen as outsiders trying to enforce our will on them, there will be those who fight against us. There may always be a small group that fights, but when we deal with a heavy hand, treating resources and countries like they are our resources and our countries, there will be those who seek to hurt us. The more we do, the more heavy our hand, the more there will be who fight.

We have a big enough stick, but we've forgotten how to speak softly.

And what did we win? Be specific. Saddam was a nobody to us. And there are plenty of terroist in iraq, likley more than there ever was with Saddam. Freedom allows for there to be more.
 
Nope. I ahve no problem proactively hitting actual terrorist. I have a problem invading on pretext a country that did not attack us or where an attack is not imminent. You do nothing to stop a terrorist in Pakistan or SA by invading Iraq. In fact, if you hold up in Iraq, you make it easier for him to attack us and hurt as. Remember, not only wasn't there an immediate attack after 9/11 (Iraq happened not months but years later), but between the first TT attack and 9/11, some 8-9 years passed. It's hard to attack us here. Much easier there. And in terms of cost, there got much for their effort. It could not have worked out better for them.

You have to win an argument. Not a war. As long as we're seen as outsiders trying to enforce our will on them, there will be those who fight against us. There may always be a small group that fights, but when we deal with a heavy hand, treating resources and countries like they are our resources and our countries, there will be those who seek to hurt us. The more we do, the more heavy our hand, the more there will be who fight.

We have a big enough stick, but we've forgotten how to speak softly.

And what did we win? Be specific. Saddam was a nobody to us. And there are plenty of terroist in iraq, likley more than there ever was with Saddam. Freedom allows for there to be more.
I challenge you to name a country that has actually taken credit for attacking us since 1941. You won't be able to because it hasn't happened. So what country do you advise we invade?
There were operatives on the ground in Afghanistan at the end of September 2001. That's a pretty fast reaction to an attack that happened mere weeks before. The official beginning of the war there was October 7, 2001, still less than a month after 9/11. It is a little harder to attack us here NOW. It obviously was not hard to attack us here then. It still isn't that hard to attack us here. Just not on the mass scale that Islamic terrorists like to do it. If they decided they wanted to attack us on a smaller scale with car bombs/package bombs/etc they could easily do that.
We are going to be seen as outsiders in a place that sees us as less than them just because we are not the same religion. I know many in the US (not saying you) can't understand that because we don't have to deal with that problem here. I can say for a fact that we do not deal with these countries nor their resources with a heavy hand. For instance, if you didn't know this, Afghanistan is the largest provider of opium in the world. It provides 92% of non-pharmaceutical opium to be exact. Guess how much of that we have eradicated? None. The only reason why is because it would send their economy into a tail spin and turn the people against us. As far as a heavy hand with the people, yes, we do deal with a heavy hand. Its called fighting a war and if you have never met an Afghani or Iraqi, speaking nicely to them or asking politely does not work.
Finally, we won an ally and a competent country besides Israel in an area of the world where we have few allies. We also gave a people that have never been free the chance to enjoy freedom for the first time in their lives. Yes, it will be hard for them and Iran will do their best to undermine all of our hardwork. I feel confident the Iraqi people can withstand it.
 
I challenge you to name a country that has actually taken credit for attacking us since 1941. You won't be able to because it hasn't happened. So what country do you advise we invade?
There were operatives on the ground in Afghanistan at the end of September 2001. That's a pretty fast reaction to an attack that happened mere weeks before. The official beginning of the war there was October 7, 2001, still less than a month after 9/11. It is a little harder to attack us here NOW. It obviously was not hard to attack us here then. It still isn't that hard to attack us here. Just not on the mass scale that Islamic terrorists like to do it. If they decided they wanted to attack us on a smaller scale with car bombs/package bombs/etc they could easily do that.
We are going to be seen as outsiders in a place that sees us as less than them just because we are not the same religion. I know many in the US (not saying you) can't understand that because we don't have to deal with that problem here. I can say for a fact that we do not deal with these countries nor their resources with a heavy hand. For instance, if you didn't know this, Afghanistan is the largest provider of opium in the world. It provides 92% of non-pharmaceutical opium to be exact. Guess how much of that we have eradicated? None. The only reason why is because it would send their economy into a tail spin and turn the people against us. As far as a heavy hand with the people, yes, we do deal with a heavy hand. Its called fighting a war and if you have never met an Afghani or Iraqi, speaking nicely to them or asking politely does not work.
Finally, we won an ally and a competent country besides Israel in an area of the world where we have few allies. We also gave a people that have never been free the chance to enjoy freedom for the first time in their lives. Yes, it will be hard for them and Iran will do their best to undermine all of our hardwork. I feel confident the Iraqi people can withstand it.

Could it be becuase one hasn't?

I don't advise we invade any country, as no country ahs attacked us.

And what prevented them after the first TT attack to attack us? As noted, Clinton did nothing, and it still took eight years. I friend of mine, using the logic so many use, says we weren't attacked because he quit shaving; therefore, his not shaving is the reason. It's same reasoning used concerning invading and us not being attacked. The fact is we got the same result the first time without doing anything.

Yes, I know about Afghanistan's opium sales. And that hasn't really changed all that much. But you misread about the heavy handedness. We have a lot of say of oil prices in the region and around the world. It is not lost on those in that region. We have a lot of buinsess interest in the region, and make no mistake soem of the worse and most brutal folks were all folks. Let's not forget the Shar of Iran or that Saddma was once our man in Iraq.

Whatever happens in Iraq will be up to the Iraqis. I think most decent folks hope for the best. But what will you say if the aline more with Iran and become more radicalized than under Saddam? Such is possible.
 
Could it be becuase one hasn't?

I don't advise we invade any country, as no country ahs attacked us.

And what prevented them after the first TT attack to attack us? As noted, Clinton did nothing, and it still took eight years. I friend of mine, using the logic so many use, says we weren't attacked because he quit shaving; therefore, his not shaving is the reason. It's same reasoning used concerning invading and us not being attacked. The fact is we got the same result the first time without doing anything.

Yes, I know about Afghanistan's opium sales. And that hasn't really changed all that much. But you misread about the heavy handedness. We have a lot of say of oil prices in the region and around the world. It is not lost on those in that region. We have a lot of buinsess interest in the region, and make no mistake soem of the worse and most brutal folks were all folks. Let's not forget the Shar of Iran or that Saddma was once our man in Iraq.

Whatever happens in Iraq will be up to the Iraqis. I think most decent folks hope for the best. But what will you say if the aline more with Iran and become more radicalized than under Saddam? Such is possible.
No, that would be wrong. It didnt take 8 years. 1993 - The first World Trade Center bombing/1995 - Attempted crashing of plane on White House/ 1996 - Khobar Towers bombing - Saudi Arabia/1998 - U.S. Embassy bombings Kenya/Tanzania/2000 - USS Cole Bombing - Yemen. Thats a terrorist attack every 2 years until they were finally successful in hitting a big target.
We actually have no say of oil prices in the region and the fact (I've seen this first hand) that Iraq has oil pooling up in the desert speaks to the fact that we are allowing them to tap those sources whenever they see fit instead of forcing anything. Saddam was the lesser of two evils in the 80's because that was in the wake of the 1980 Iran hostage situation.
 
No, that would be wrong. It didnt take 8 years. 1993 - The first World Trade Center bombing/1995 - Attempted crashing of plane on White House/ 1996 - Khobar Towers bombing - Saudi Arabia/1998 - U.S. Embassy bombings Kenya/Tanzania/2000 - USS Cole Bombing - Yemen. Thats a terrorist attack every 2 years until they were finally successful in hitting a big target.
We actually have no say of oil prices in the region and the fact (I've seen this first hand) that Iraq has oil pooling up in the desert speaks to the fact that we are allowing them to tap those sources whenever they see fit instead of forcing anything. Saddam was the lesser of two evils in the 80's because that was in the wake of the 1980 Iran hostage situation.

Read what I said, between TT attacks. Do you really count the small plane? What country would you have invaded for him? ;)

The rest, out side the US continue to this day, and being in Iraq made it much easier, much less costly.

And it doesn't matter our reasons for supporting a tyrannt, the fact is we have supported tyrannts, repeatedly. We have littel problem with tyrannts as long as they are our tyrannts. Sadly.
 
Read what I said, between TT attacks. Do you really count the small plane? What country would you have invaded for him? ;)

The rest, out side the US continue to this day, and being in Iraq made it much easier, much less costly.

And it doesn't matter our reasons for supporting a tyrannt, the fact is we have supported tyrannts, repeatedly. We have littel problem with tyrannts as long as they are our tyrannts. Sadly.
Look, I volunteered, as I did my brethren, to become a Marine so I could be the forward edge of defense. If that involves us going to a foreign country to battle terrorists so they won't come here, so be it. That's what we're here for.
9/11 was over 10 years ago. That is the longest we have gone without an attack on our soil by Islamic terrorists since the 60's. That is due in no small part to our wars in Afghan and Iraq.
I actually agree with you ***:shock:*** about the tyrannt thing. I wonder when we are going to learn that our short term support of people like Saddam never pays off.
 
Look, I volunteered, as I did my brethren, to become a Marine so I could be the forward edge of defense. If that involves us going to a foreign country to battle terrorists so they won't come here, so be it. That's what we're here for.
9/11 was over 10 years ago. That is the longest we have gone without an attack on our soil by Islamic terrorists since the 60's. That is due in no small part to our wars in Afghan and Iraq.
I actually agree with you ***:shock:*** about the tyrannt thing. I wonder when we are going to learn that our short term support of people like Saddam never pays off.

I respect your decision, but the facts don't change. being in iraq does not stop anyoen from coing here. We just made it easier for them to hurt us and really little more.

And no, if you count anything as American soil, as you do in your list, you would still be incorrect. We've had a few since then. Not to mention all those lives lost in those two countries.


Terrorist Attacks in the U.S. or Against Americans


2004
May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.
June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.
Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.
2005
Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.
2006
Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy is foiled.
2007
Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy is fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.
Dec. 11, Algeria: more than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.
2008
May 26, Iraq: a suicide bomber on a motorcycle kills six U.S. soldiers and wounds 18 others in Tarmiya.
June 24, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills at least 20 people, including three U.S. Marines, at a meeting between sheiks and Americans in Karmah, a town west of Baghdad.
June 12, Afghanistan: four American servicemen are killed when a roadside bomb explodes near a U.S. military vehicle in Farah Province.
July 13, Afghanistan: nine U.S.soldiers and at least 15 NATO troops die when Taliban militants boldly attack an American base in Kunar Province, which borders Pakistan. It's the most deadly against U.S. troops in three years.
Aug. 18 and 19, Afghanistan: as many as 15 suicide bombers backed by about 30 militants attack a U.S. military base, Camp Salerno, in Bamiyan. Fighting between U.S. troops and members of the Taliban rages overnight. No U.S. troops are killed.
Sept. 16, Yemen: a car bomb and a rocket strike the U.S. embassy in Yemen as staff arrived to work, killing 16 people, including 4 civilians. At least 25 suspected al-Qaeda militants are arrested for the attack.
Nov. 26, India: in a series of attacks on several of Mumbai's landmarks and commercial hubs that are popular with Americans and other foreign tourists, including at least two five-star hotels, a hospital, a train station, and a cinema. About 300 people are wounded and nearly 190 people die, including at least 5 Americans.
2009
Feb. 9, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.
April 10, Iraq: a suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen.
June 1, Little Rock, Arkansas: Abdulhakim Muhammed, a Muslim convert from Memphis, Tennessee, is charged with shooting two soldiers outside a military recruiting center. One is killed and the other is wounded. In a January 2010 letter to the judge hearing his case, Muhammed asked to change his plea from not guilty to guilty, claimed ties to al-Qaeda, and called the shooting a jihadi attack "to fight those who wage war on Islam and Muslims."
Dec. 25: A Nigerian man on a flight from Amsterdam to Detroit attempted to ignite an explosive device hidden in his underwear. The explosive device that failed to detonate was a mixture of powder and liquid that did not alert security personnel in the airport. The alleged bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, told officials later that he was directed by the terrorist group Al Qaeda. The suspect was already on the government's watch list when he attempted the bombing; his father, a respected Nigerian banker, had told the U.S. government that he was worried about his son's increased extremism.
Dec. 30, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills eight Americans civilians, seven of them CIA agents, at a base in Afghanistan. It's the deadliest attack on the agency since 9/11. The attacker is reportedly a double agent from Jordan who was acting on behalf of al-Qaeda.
2010
May 1, New York City: a car bomb is discovered in Times Square, New York City after smoke is seen coming from a vehicle. The bomb was ignited, but failed to detonate and was disarmed before it could cause any harm. Times Square was evacuated as a safety precaution. Faisal Shahzad pleads guilty to placing the bomb as well as 10 terrorism and weapons charges.
May 10, Jacksonville, Florida: a pipe bomb explodes while approximately 60 Muslims are praying in the mosque. The attack causes no injuries.
Oct. 29: two packages are found on separate cargo planes. Each package contains a bomb consisting of 300 to 400 grams (11-14 oz) of plastic explosives and a detonating mechanism. The bombs are discovered as a result of intelligence received from Saudi Arabia's security chief. The packages, bound from Yemen to the United States, are discovered at en route stop-overs, one in England and one in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates.
2011
Jan. 17, Spokane, Washington: a pipe bomb is discovered along the route of the Martin Luther King, Jr. memorial march. The bomb, a "viable device" set up to spray marchers with shrapnel and to cause multiple casualties, is defused without any injuries.


Read more: Terrorist Attacks in the U.S. or Against Americans — Infoplease.com Terrorist Attacks in the U.S. or Against Americans — Infoplease.com

ANything thrawed came about by being more alert here and not from being in either country. There is no link between those countries and attacks here. You cannot stop Saudis and Pakistanis from attacking us by being in either Iraq or Afghanistan.
 
I respect your decision, but the facts don't change. being in iraq does not stop anyoen from coing here. We just made it easier for them to hurt us and really little more.

And no, if you count anything as American soil, as you do in your list, you would still be incorrect. We've had a few since then. Not to mention all those lives lost in those two countries.


Terrorist Attacks in the U.S. or Against Americans


2004
May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.
June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.
Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.
2005
Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.
2006
Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy is foiled.
2007
Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy is fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.
Dec. 11, Algeria: more than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.
2008
May 26, Iraq: a suicide bomber on a motorcycle kills six U.S. soldiers and wounds 18 others in Tarmiya.
June 24, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills at least 20 people, including three U.S. Marines, at a meeting between sheiks and Americans in Karmah, a town west of Baghdad.
June 12, Afghanistan: four American servicemen are killed when a roadside bomb explodes near a U.S. military vehicle in Farah Province.
July 13, Afghanistan: nine U.S.soldiers and at least 15 NATO troops die when Taliban militants boldly attack an American base in Kunar Province, which borders Pakistan. It's the most deadly against U.S. troops in three years.
Aug. 18 and 19, Afghanistan: as many as 15 suicide bombers backed by about 30 militants attack a U.S. military base, Camp Salerno, in Bamiyan. Fighting between U.S. troops and members of the Taliban rages overnight. No U.S. troops are killed.
Sept. 16, Yemen: a car bomb and a rocket strike the U.S. embassy in Yemen as staff arrived to work, killing 16 people, including 4 civilians. At least 25 suspected al-Qaeda militants are arrested for the attack.
Nov. 26, India: in a series of attacks on several of Mumbai's landmarks and commercial hubs that are popular with Americans and other foreign tourists, including at least two five-star hotels, a hospital, a train station, and a cinema. About 300 people are wounded and nearly 190 people die, including at least 5 Americans.
2009
Feb. 9, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.
April 10, Iraq: a suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen.
June 1, Little Rock, Arkansas: Abdulhakim Muhammed, a Muslim convert from Memphis, Tennessee, is charged with shooting two soldiers outside a military recruiting center. One is killed and the other is wounded. In a January 2010 letter to the judge hearing his case, Muhammed asked to change his plea from not guilty to guilty, claimed ties to al-Qaeda, and called the shooting a jihadi attack "to fight those who wage war on Islam and Muslims."
Dec. 25: A Nigerian man on a flight from Amsterdam to Detroit attempted to ignite an explosive device hidden in his underwear. The explosive device that failed to detonate was a mixture of powder and liquid that did not alert security personnel in the airport. The alleged bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, told officials later that he was directed by the terrorist group Al Qaeda. The suspect was already on the government's watch list when he attempted the bombing; his father, a respected Nigerian banker, had told the U.S. government that he was worried about his son's increased extremism.
Dec. 30, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills eight Americans civilians, seven of them CIA agents, at a base in Afghanistan. It's the deadliest attack on the agency since 9/11. The attacker is reportedly a double agent from Jordan who was acting on behalf of al-Qaeda.
2010
May 1, New York City: a car bomb is discovered in Times Square, New York City after smoke is seen coming from a vehicle. The bomb was ignited, but failed to detonate and was disarmed before it could cause any harm. Times Square was evacuated as a safety precaution. Faisal Shahzad pleads guilty to placing the bomb as well as 10 terrorism and weapons charges.
May 10, Jacksonville, Florida: a pipe bomb explodes while approximately 60 Muslims are praying in the mosque. The attack causes no injuries.
Oct. 29: two packages are found on separate cargo planes. Each package contains a bomb consisting of 300 to 400 grams (11-14 oz) of plastic explosives and a detonating mechanism. The bombs are discovered as a result of intelligence received from Saudi Arabia's security chief. The packages, bound from Yemen to the United States, are discovered at en route stop-overs, one in England and one in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates.
2011
Jan. 17, Spokane, Washington: a pipe bomb is discovered along the route of the Martin Luther King, Jr. memorial march. The bomb, a "viable device" set up to spray marchers with shrapnel and to cause multiple casualties, is defused without any injuries.


Read more: Terrorist Attacks in the U.S. or Against Americans — Infoplease.com Terrorist Attacks in the U.S. or Against Americans — Infoplease.com

ANything thrawed came about by being more alert here and not from being in either country. There is no link between those countries and attacks here. You cannot stop Saudis and Pakistanis from attacking us by being in either Iraq or Afghanistan.
Of all the attacks listed above, one was on a gov't target and successful. I don't count the attacks in Afghanistan and Iraq because thats the point of my previous post (plus its a war). My point about us deploying is that we are now the target instead of the American people. Just like WWI and WWII. Our gov't knew we needed to forward deploy to stop the ball from being pushed into our territory. Sure, journalists and people of that nature are attacked a lot but that is monetarily driven not ideological. The attacks I listed were both successful, from an individual not of American descent, and against gov't targets. We can't do anything about someone attacking the US from within which is why I didn't list Timothy McVeigh. I am talking about foreign born, Islamic terrorists coming here and attacking us.
 
Of all the attacks listed above, one was on a gov't target and successful. I don't count the attacks in Afghanistan and Iraq because thats the point of my previous post (plus its a war). My point about us deploying is that we are now the target instead of the American people. Just like WWI and WWII. Our gov't knew we needed to forward deploy to stop the ball from being pushed into our territory. Sure, journalists and people of that nature are attacked a lot but that is monetarily driven not ideological. The attacks I listed were both successful, from an individual not of American descent, and against gov't targets. We can't do anything about someone attacking the US from within which is why I didn't list Timothy McVeigh. I am talking about foreign born, Islamic terrorists coming here and attacking us.

No, while noble that you think you've made yourself a target, all that really means is you made it easier for them. As you can see from the efforts, they are still targeting Americans. Being in iraq hasn't made them less successful, being awake has. Iraq merely allows them easier targets, whihc means they are largely more successful in hurting us than they would have been otherwise. Remember, it is not either there or here. It is both. And you can't do much about anyone attacking anywhere. A small group will always beable to find away, which is why the miltary is largely an ineffective tool for that type of mission. Too large, too bulky. More suited to figth real wars and not guard against small bands of terrorist.

And McVeigh happens regardless. So does any attack by anyone who gets here, which is the point. Being in Iraq does nothing to stop it. Again, Saudis attacked us. Pakistan money was used. Best that be said about Afghanistan is OBL was there. Otherwise not much else. Iraq, not even that. Logically, there is nothing being Iraq could possible do to make us any safer anywhere.
 
No, while noble that you think you've made yourself a target, all that really means is you made it easier for them. As you can see from the efforts, they are still targeting Americans. Being in iraq hasn't made them less successful, being awake has. Iraq merely allows them easier targets, whihc means they are largely more successful in hurting us than they would have been otherwise. Remember, it is not either there or here. It is both. And you can't do much about anyone attacking anywhere. A small group will always beable to find away, which is why the miltary is largely an ineffective tool for that type of mission. Too large, too bulky. More suited to figth real wars and not guard against small bands of terrorist.

And McVeigh happens regardless. So does any attack by anyone who gets here, which is the point. Being in Iraq does nothing to stop it. Again, Saudis attacked us. Pakistan money was used. Best that be said about Afghanistan is OBL was there. Otherwise not much else. Iraq, not even that. Logically, there is nothing being Iraq could possible do to make us any safer anywhere.
I think we just need to agree to disagree on this lol. We aren't going to get anywhere with this discussion because I'm not going to change my mind and you're not going to change yours. Thank you for the debate though and especially thank you for being cordial and not turning it into personal shots.:peace
 
I think we just need to agree to disagree on this lol. We aren't going to get anywhere with this discussion because I'm not going to change my mind and you're not going to change yours. Thank you for the debate though and especially thank you for being cordial and not turning it into personal shots.:peace

That may be true. I don't rule out the possibility of having a mind changed, as only the dead can't change their mind. But it will take sound logic and good evidence to change my mind.

Still, you've been a decent fellow to discuss with. :peace
 
Back
Top Bottom