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Hypocrites!

FutureIncoming said:
It is true that every fetus is an individual ANIMAL ORGANISM. Whoop-te-do. You are trying to extract more from a simple statement than is actually there. You are still basing your argument on faulty reasoning!

It's a ladder rather than a chain of linking circles. It's a web of clusters of dependant information rather than a venn diagram. You skip a few rungs on the ladder of describing human life when you want to call a fetus an animal. You've heard of Kingdom Phylum Class Order Family Genus Species? Each new term describes the organisms in that group a little more precisely... When you call a fetus in a human being's womb an animal...you skip over all those steps that each help to more precisely define the individual "thing" you are talking about.

http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.e...ification/path/Homo_sapiens.html#Homo sapiens



And you DO know, don't you, that the phrase refers to various entities sometimes called "brownies" or "elves" or "wee folk"? NONHUMANS, THEY ARE DESCRIBED AS. AND PERSONS ALSO,
Check out your own challenge, darlin'. I said all persons are human because IN THE REAL WORLD...that's the facts, jack. But in your fantasy land...yeah...brownies and elves and wee folk were imagined to have rational wills, no?...so no duh they were called "people."



Human life only matters to humans, AS THEY SUBJECTIVELY CHOOSE.
Humans choose. Not teenagers, not Asian women, not dentists....HUMANS subjectively identify those qualities that separate them from the rest of the animal kingdom.

Which thing (the choosing) cannot be done without significant brainpower. Which no fetus possesses.
Neither does a developmentally disabled "person" or a two year old "person" or a "person" with catastrophic brain injury....are they "animals" and therefore have no right to life and should be allowed to be killed by those charged with their care?
Hack up a hairball on that one FI...YOU are the one with the inconsistencies or you are the one supporting wholesale extermination of anyone who is dependant on another for their decision making and/or care if the caregiver so chooses. This is Peter Singer crapola--utilitarianism to the nth degree! Explain your position on born "people" that don't demonstrate that precious significant "brainpower" and how their biological taxonomy is somehow altered due to that lack of mental faculties.



Felicity failed to quote or reply to anything else in Message #783, likely due to jumping to yet another erroneous conclusion, as indicated above. Try again!
NAw...maybe it's likely due to your rambling irrelevancies...If there is some jewel I missed that was hidden amidst the junkyard of extra words...point it out to me.;)




Felicity quoted: "Now you are being silly. IT IS ALREADY A HUMAN LIFE. There are lots of potentials associated with the future of that life, but its human-qualifying life began at conception."

--and wrote: "I don't know what to say to that...exactly correct. I guess the debate is over--human life begins at conception... EXACTLY."
I just love that.....You're pro-life FI! :mrgreen:
 
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Felicity quoted: "It is true that every fetus is an individual ANIMAL ORGANISM. Whoop-te-do. You are trying to extract more from a simple statement than is actually there. You are still basing your argument on faulty reasoning!"

"It's a ladder rather than a chain of linking circles. It's a web of clusters of dependant information rather than a venn diagram. You skip a few rungs on the ladder of describing human life when you want to call a fetus an animal. You've heard of Kingdom Phylum Class Order Family Genus Species? Each new term describes the organisms in that group a little more precisely... When you call a fetus in a human being's womb an animal...you skip over all those steps that each help to more precisely define the individual "thing" you are talking about."

HAH! NONE of those fancy labels change the biological fact that humans are animals, and NONE of those fancy labels gives a human fetus any more brainpower than an animal. THEREFORE YOU ARE STILL USING FAULTY REASONING, to imply that a human fetus is more than it actually is. Just like I wrote in what you quoted above.




Felicity quoted: "And you DO know, don't you, that the phrase refers to various entities sometimes called "brownies" or "elves" or "wee folk"? NONHUMANS, THEY ARE DESCRIBED AS. AND PERSONS ALSO,"

--and wrote: "Check out your own challenge, darlin'. I said all persons are human because IN THE REAL WORLD...that's the facts, jack. But in your fantasy land...yeah...brownies and elves and wee folk were imagined to have rational wills, no?...so no duh they were called "people.""

You are still ignoring FACTS. In this particular case, despite the fact that NOWADAYS we regard such entities as brownies as being fanciful, THAT WAS NOT THE CASE IN THOSE DAYS, when the phrase "little people" originated. They took such things VERY SERIOUSLY, just as they took seriously the notion that devils and angels walked the Earth.

And in a musing vein of "hmmmm....", consider this: http://ufocasebook.com/Aurora.html (I saw a TV show about that not long ago, which mentioned finding a piece of metal that was 95% aluminum and 5% iron, an alloy VERY difficult to make on Earth, due to the different densities of the metals, but easy to make in the zero-G environment of a space factory.) All it would take is for some similar event in past centuries, with survivors, for the myth of "little people" to come into existence. Not to mention that the sub-group called "leprechauns" were considered magical, and according to Clarke's Third Law, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." http://www.lsi.usp.br/~rbianchi/clarke/ACC.Laws.html Hmmmm..., indeed! Also, do note there is NO faulty reasoning in this part of my post; there is only some unverified data upon which the reasoning is based, and I have NOT claimed that that data is totally valid. Here I am simply presenting food for thought, while you have tended to make bald pronouncements, such as the quote above that more-or-less states the "real world" excludes nonhuman intelligences, just because we don't routinely encounter them. That IS faulty reasoning! Especially for someone who elsewhere claims that there exists an intelligent nonhuman often referred-to as "God". It is hypocritically faulty reasoning!




Felicity quoted: " Human life only matters to humans, AS THEY SUBJECTIVELY CHOOSE."

--and wrote: "Humans choose. Not teenagers, not Asian women, not dentists....HUMANS subjectively identify those qualities that separate them from the rest of the animal kingdom."

MORE FAULTY REASONING. NOTHING can "separate" humans from the animal kingdom; we are as FULLY a part of that kingdom as we are fully human. A more accurate word is "distinguish"; as for example, "In a crowd of various animals, humans can be usually distinguished by these traits..." That is, humans are animals AND chordates AND vertebrates AND mammals AND primates AND apes; we do not lose any of the subsidiary characteristics just because we happen to have additional features that are unique to humans.

Now, getting back to another part of what you wrote, yes, humans DO choose how they go about distinguishing their group from non-humans. And, humans do NOT need ALL the possible traits of humans to make that determination. A common minimum suffices, as I've already written elsewhere. Thus immature humans such as first-grade shool-children are part of "humanity", even though they lack the ability to reproduce (which IS, if you recall, one of the key things that has often been used to define "life", and not that tiny subset of life called humanity!).

Similarly, unborn humans are nevertheless humans, even though they exhibit no more brainpower than ordinary animals. IT IS THE HUMANS THAT HAVE THE BRAINPOWER THAT DO THE CHOOSING, as to what qualifies as human --AND to what degree human-ness MATTERS. That last thing is the key thing you have chosen to ignore. Some humans DO choose to regard unborn humans as not-mattering, because they lack brainpower (and it is more-than-animal brainpower that matters to them), while some humans choose to regard unborn humans as mattering, despite their lack of brainpower (because other purely animal traits, excluding brainpower, matters to them). This choice IS entirely subjective, which fact you ALSO ignored. You have NO argument which can require all humans-who-can-choose, to regard all unborn humans as mattering. But **I** have an argument for **YOU**. Brainpower matters BECAUSE IT CAN CHOOSE. Without the brainpower, NO human could claim that humans matter. So, empowered humans who dismiss the mindless unborn do so because it is CONSISTENT to do so. Likewise, brain-dead humans on life-support are unplugged because when the brainpower-to-choose is gone, the life doesn't matter. Meanwhile, YOU ARE INCONSISTENT. You use your brainpower to choose to claim that brainpower you used to make that choice doesn't matter as much as other things! Such inconsistency is just another sign of faulty reasoning on your part!

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Felicity quoted: " Which thing (the choosing) cannot be done without significant brainpower. Which no fetus possesses."

--and wrote: "Neither does a developmentally disabled "person" or a two year old "person" or a "person" with catastrophic brain injury....are they "animals" and therefore have no right to life and should be allowed to be killed by those charged with their care?

Tsk, tsk. Your statement is possible ONLY because you continue to confuse "human" with "person". PERSONS are a result of significant brainpower (or brainpower-equivalent), and are INDEPENDENT of "human". That's why descriptions of God are also descriptions of a person, despite God being entirely nonhuman. Consider a cyborg, in which a human brain might be transplanted into a mechanical body that features life-support for that brain. Science Fiction first considered this scenario in the 1930s (several novels by Neil R. Jones featured a "Professor Jamieson" in exactly that situation, although the word "cyborg" wasn't coined until decades later). Such a cyborg would FULLY be a person because of the brainpower, not because of the body (and in spite of all the angst written-about by Martin Caidin in his novel "Cyborg", which was adapted to become the TV series "The Six Million Dollar Man", where the hero still had most of his original body). Now you MIGHT start to say something about how these cyborgs have HUMAN brains, and so their person-ness derives from that -- but look above at what you wrote that I quoted! You are talking about humans that DON'T have the brainpower!!! AND YOU THINK THEY SHOULD BE CALLED PERSONS BECAUSE OF THEIR BODIES AND NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR BRAINPOWER???? Once again your inconsistent/faulty reasoning is exposed!

Next, regarding "charged with their care" -- WHO REQUIRES THAT? WHY do they require that? (The answer appears to be that the ones who make the requirement can benefit personally from it, while the ones who receive the requirement suffer. NOT a good reason for such a requirment!) When talking about rather independent organisms such as brain-dead humans on life-support, it is always possible to TRANSFER care from one who doesn't think it necessary to one who thinks it is necessary. Why don't you volunteer to pay those bills (not to mention adopt the unwanted children you would force-to-be-born)? In the case of less-independent organisms such as a human fetus, it is NOT possible, so far as I know, to transplant fetus and placenta from one womb to another. But that's irrelevant to what you wrote above; there you are not talking about so-dependent organisms. And you KNOW I have addressed before the issue of two-year-olds. Any such killing will be extremely rare, when unwanted humans are allowed to be aborted long before birth (the ones who are born and become two years old will be wanted!).


Felicity also wrote: "Hack up a hairball on that one FI...YOU are the one with the inconsistencies or you are the one supporting wholesale extermination of anyone who is dependant on another for their decision making and/or care if the caregiver so chooses.

HAW! HAW!! HAW!!! Your continuing to misinterpret my position gets you nowhere. I have stated MANY times that The Lack Of A Right To Life Is **NOT** An Automatic Death Penalty. There is NO "wholesale extermination" in anything I have written (and more than once have I invited pro-lifers to take over caregiver responsibilites in various situations, such as by paying all the medical and follow-on bills for unwanted pregnancies). Your desperate attempt to twist what I actually have written wins you no points at all.


Felicity also wrote: "This is Peter Singer crapola--utilitarianism to the nth degree! Explain your position on born "people" that don't demonstrate that precious significant "brainpower" and how their biological taxonomy is somehow altered due to that lack of mental faculties."

I'm not sure I ever heard of "Peter Singer" before. (After some Googling...) Nope, haven't. If by "utilitarianism" you mean he wants to treat humans as cogs in a Civilization Machine, then I'm against it. Maybe someday I'll take some time to study him a bit. For now, regarding your request, I first ignore your implication that people are born. They might be hatched, after all! (And how did God, described as being utterly nonphysical, happen to start existing, eh?) BIOLOGICAL TAXONOMY IS IRRELEVANT. Your request is still fundamentally AND ERRONEOUSLY dependepent upon the assumption that all humans are persons. The FACT is simply that humans are humans, PERIOD. MOST of them are also persons, BECAUSE of their significant brainpower. Which is grown WELL AFTER birth (and I wouldn't be surprised if hatched entities do the same, become persons by growing significant brainpower well after the hatching --although what I wrote above about "might be hatched" remains a POSSIBILITY....) If you MUST use taxonomy to categorize "persons", then TWO things are important, First, you would have to declare "persons" as being a subset of "homo sapiens", just as genus homo is a subset of the apes, and the apes are a subset of the primates, and so on. Second, you would have to allow OTHER taxonomical pathways to reach that same end-point. For example, **IF** giant squids can be persons, then "persons" would ALSO be a subset of "Architeuthis dux". Think of it as "convergent evolution" in action, culminating in an IDEA that even accommodates extraterrestrial biology, and indeed supercedes biology altogether (because there is nothing known to prevent artificial intelligences from one day qualifying as persons -- and God, of course, is described as entirely nonbiological AND nonphysical). What say you now?




Felicity quoted: "Felicity failed to quote or reply to anything else in Message #783, likely due to jumping to yet another erroneous conclusion, as indicated above. Try again!"

--and wrote: "NAw...maybe it's likely due to your rambling irrelevancies...If there is some jewel I missed that was hidden amidst the junkyard of extra words...point it out to me."

Hmmmm. In reviewing that Message I see little that has not been already discussed here, except perhaps the part about Humpty Dumpty and your continuing lack of understanding of the difference between the potential and the actual. Why DO you claim that mere potentials are as relevant as actualities?




Felicity quoted: "human-qualifying life began at conception."

--and wrote: "I just love that.....You're pro-life FI!"

No, that's a misinterpretation on your part. Do check out the very first message I ever posted in this Debate Forum (#176 of "Explain Your Reasoning"). ALWAYS have I been considering the rationale behind the phrase "human life matters".
 
So let me get this staight, abortionists are so cold that they will throw away babies and say they aren't even people? That is sick.
 
Axismaster wrote: "So let me get this staight, abortionists are so cold that they will throw away babies and say they aren't even people? That is sick."

No, what is sick is to lie about the facts. There are NO facts that show unborn humans to qualify as being more than mere animals. There are only CLAIMS, such as provably-inaccurate dictionary definitions. Go ahead, read the challenge in my signature, and just try to define "person" in a way that excludes mere mindless animals and yet includes equally-mindless unborn humans, along with allowing nonhumans such as God to qualify also. So far, EVERY attempt to do that has merely revealed prejudice on the part of the attemptee.
 
Future's sig...

I'm waiting for a pro-lifer to successfully take up this challenge:
"Define "person" to be Universally accurate, regardless of physical nature, to distinguish people from mere animals, anywhere.
For example, if God exists, is non-biological, and is a person, then God is a person because {--put definitive criteria here--}.
After that, please explain how unborn humans are so different from mere animals that they should be classed as persons, too.
Good Luck!


The person is the essence of man. Man has a soul, for without a soul, there is no point to life. Unless there was some higher goal to be achieved at the end of the life cycle, there is no reason for man to know, to think, or to do anything to improve his world. Instead, it would simply remain better for man to go out and fight for himself at all times regardless of what happens to anyone else, and I doubt any do-gooder liberal would like that world, but that is what it would be if life had no meaning or higher goal, and if life has no meaning, then it is not sacred. On the other hand, if life has a meaning and there is a reason to live and to do good, then life is sacred, for there is a purpose for every person somewhere in the mix. Casting this flippantly aside simply says that some people deserve to be born and some do not, and that is a truly aristocratic ideal. Secondly, God is a person even though he is a non-biological being. You see, there are two realms, the physical and non-physical. The non-physical realm is seperate from our own but at the same time tied to it. An argument against it is that it cannot be explained by science, but if God is as great as he is, then he is too high to be explained by science. The mere suggestion by Darwinists that all things can be explained by science is absurd considering how little we have scratched the surface of our own world, and we still have the universe to explore after that before we attempt to explore the spiritual realm, so it is best to keep things in good faith. God himself can make decisions and thoughts and has feelings, making him a person, and most importantly, he strives for a future and the betterment of the world. If there is but a single thing that seperates man from beast, it is that man has beliefs, and that whether those beliefs are political or religious, they are something that man alone has. Animals are not liberal or conservative, Muslim or Christian. Why does man have beliefs? Because a higher power gives him the capabilities of believing. This is why man is higher on the chain than animals, and the elimination of a potential human is wrong. A fetus has the potential to become a human, so we should not take that away. Now you can complain about emotional arguments in favor of life, but I would like to say that if you are so aloof that you cannot believe something until you see it proven by exact science, then you yourself are blind to others, so don't ever try to talk to me about improving society, because yourself must be your only concern.
 
Axismaster said:
Future's sig...

I'm waiting for a pro-lifer to successfully take up this challenge:
"Define "person" to be Universally accurate, regardless of physical nature, to distinguish people from mere animals, anywhere.
For example, if God exists, is non-biological, and is a person, then God is a person because {--put definitive criteria here--}.
After that, please explain how unborn humans are so different from mere animals that they should be classed as persons, too.
Good Luck!


The person is the essence of man. Man has a soul, for without a soul, there is no point to life.

Prove it.

Unless there was some higher goal to be achieved at the end of the life cycle, there is no reason for man to know, to think, or to do anything to improve his world. Instead, it would simply remain better for man to go out and fight for himself at all times regardless of what happens to anyone else, and I doubt any do-gooder liberal would like that world, but that is what it would be if life had no meaning or higher goal, and if life has no meaning, then it is not sacred.

Untrue. I don't believe in any "higher goal", but I still strive to better myself and my environment. Thinking that you need supernatural incentive to be a productive, improving person is flat-out wrong.

On the other hand, if life has a meaning and there is a reason to live and to do good, then life is sacred, for there is a purpose for every person somewhere in the mix. Casting this flippantly aside simply says that some people deserve to be born and some do not, and that is a truly aristocratic ideal.

Secondly, God is a person even though he is a non-biological being. You see, there are two realms, the physical and non-physical. The non-physical realm is seperate from our own but at the same time tied to it. An argument against it is that it cannot be explained by science, but if God is as great as he is, then he is too high to be explained by science. The mere suggestion by Darwinists that all things can be explained by science is absurd considering how little we have scratched the surface of our own world, and we still have the universe to explore after that before we attempt to explore the spiritual realm, so it is best to keep things in good faith. God himself can make decisions and thoughts and has feelings, making him a person, and most importantly, he strives for a future and the betterment of the world.

Prove it. Really. We can't make policy on your unproven beliefs.
If there is but a single thing that seperates man from beast, it is that man has beliefs, and that whether those beliefs are political or religious, they are something that man alone has.

Man alone also has the ability to invent, to create, to debate, to improve. Belief is not the defining characteristic of Homo Sapiens, it is our ingenuity and sentience.
 
I suppose you will never accept my beliefs no matter what I say. At the same time I will never accept your pro-choice beliefs that a fetus is not a full human being. This is why I think we should leave the abortion issue up to the people in a direct democratic vote. Tell me now, would there be anything wrong with that? Regardless of whether my views win or lose, I see nothing wrong with a democratic vote, do you?
 
Axismaster quoted: "I'm waiting for a pro-lifer to successfully take up this challenge: Define "person" to be Universally accurate, regardless of physical nature, to distinguish people from mere animals, anywhere. For example, if God exists, is non-biological, and is a person, then God is a person because {--put definitive criteria here--}. After that, please explain how unborn humans are so different from mere animals that they should be classed as persons, too. Good Luck!"

--and wrote: "The person is the essence of man."

Tsk, tsk. ALREADY you have failed the challenge. By that statement you deny that God qualifies as a person. By that statement you deny that ANY sort of non-human might qualify as a person. Care to try again?


Axismaster also wrote: "Man has a soul, for without a soul, there is no point to life."

Can you off experimentally repeatable evidence for that claim? If not, then why should anyone believe the claim?


Axismaster also wrote: "Unless there was some higher goal to be achieved at the end of the life cycle, there is no reason for man to know, to think, or to do anything to improve his world."

FALSE. There is always the human ego, and satisfaction/fame for accomplishing things that meet the approval of peers.



Axismaster also wrote: "Instead, it would simply remain better for man to go out and fight for himself at all times regardless of what happens to anyone else, and I doubt any do-gooder liberal would like that world, but that is what it would be if life had no meaning or higher goal,"

FALSE, as just indicated above.


Axismaster also wrote: "and if life has no meaning, then it is not sacred."

BLATHER. Consider this Question: If God exists, then what is the meaning of that existence, TO GOD? The FACT is, existence HAS NO INHERENT PURPOSE. It simply is. The proof of this comes from the Law of Cause and Effect: If the Universe was Created for a Purpose, then what is the Purpose of the Existence of the Creator? If the Creator was also Created, then that question can be asked endlessly. If the Creator wasn't Created (OR if the Universe wasn't Created), then that existence came about as the result of some PURPOSELESS/RANDOM event. And therefore Existence ULTIMATELY has NO Purpose. So, what do we DO with that information? WE CREATE OUR OWN PURPOSES. The word "sacred" does not apply at all!


Axismaster also wrote: "On the other hand, if life has a meaning and there is a reason to live and to do good, then life is sacred, for there is a purpose for every person somewhere in the mix."

Here you are assuming the Universe was Created for a Purpose. Do you have any experimentally repeatable evidence to support that claim? If not, why should anyone believe the claim?


Axismaster also wrote: "Casting this flippantly aside simply says that some people deserve to be born and some do not, and that is a truly aristocratic ideal."

NOT. You are making the unwarranted and totally unsupported assumption that unborn humans are persons. Does a field mouse deserve to be born (especially when a fair percentage of them simply become food for birds)? Your claim makes no sense when the unspoken assumption is removed. NATURE DOESN'T CARE whether anything is born or not. So why should humans care, outside of obvious selfish reasons like passing-the-genes-on?


Axismaster also wrote: "Secondly, God is a person even though he is a non-biological being."

I note there is no explanation here of WHY God would qualify as a person. All I see is the mere unsupported CLAIM. (ok, I see something further down)


Axismaster also wrote: "You see, there are two realms, the physical and non-physical. The non-physical realm is seperate from our own but at the same time tied to it. An argument against it is that it cannot be explained by science, but if God is as great as he is, then he is too high to be explained by science."

INCORRECT. Science has so far limited its most serious investigations to the physical realm, where experiments can provide repeatable results; that's all. While there are plenty of hints that there is more to The Totality Of Existence than the mere physical Universe (ESP, for example), the paucity of experimentally repeatable evidence has so far made serious research difficult. However, there is nothing to prevent FUTURE experiments to be devised, that could provide repeatable results. Only time will tell.


Axismaster also wrote: "The mere suggestion by Darwinists that all things can be explained by science is absurd considering how little we have scratched the surface of our own world, and we still have the universe to explore"

YOUR IGNORANCE IS SHOWING. The most important thing about Modern Science is that we have EVIDENCE that phenomena which are observed in this corner of the physical Universe are identical to phenomen which are observed in distance corners of the physical Universe. Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation wasn't called that for no reason (even if it it turned out to be a less accurate description of the Universe than General Relativity). Yes, we could spend millions of years studying DETAILS of how have manifested the various Laws by which the Universe operates, but so far we haven't needed direct access to the whole Universe to figure out the laws themselves. DO keep in mind that some of our existing understanding of the physical Universe can be TESTED to 18 significant figures of precision (one part in a quintillion). Only our inability to construct more-accurate measuring equipment prevents us from verifying that understanding to even greater precision. AND ANY SUPERIOR DESCRIPTION of how the physical Universe operates MUST MATCH the measurements we already have! --before it can describe things we don't already know about.


Axismaster also wrote: "we still have the universe to explore after that before we attempt to explore the spiritual realm, so it is best to keep things in good faith."

HAH! We won't wait to finish exploring the physical before studying the metaphysical. ALREADY there are experiments involving the metaphysical. They just haven't been very revealing yet. But there's lots of opportunities for more experments in the future.


Axismaster also wrote: "God himself can make decisions and thoughts and has feelings, making him a person, and most importantly, he strives for a future and the betterment of the world."

Not bad. Now explain why you think an unborn human can do those things? If it can't, then why should it be called a person instead of an animal? If it can, then where is the evidence for it?


Axismaster also wrote: "If there is but a single thing that seperates man from beast, it is that man has beliefs, and that whether those beliefs are political or religious, they are something that man alone has. Animals are not liberal or conservative, Muslim or Christian."

Again, please explain why you think an unborn human can do those things? If it can't, then why should it be called a person instead of an animal? If it can, then where is the evidence for it?


Axismaster also wrote: "Why does man have beliefs? Because a higher power gives him the capabilities of believing. This is why man is higher on the chain than animals,"

UNPROVED. Where is the repeatable evidence to support that claim? If you can't provide the evidence, then why should anyone believe the claim? The FACT is, we do not NEED to invoke a higher power to explain why humans have the ability to believe things. All we need to invoke is the fact that well-developed humans have lots of brainpower, and that "belief" is a function of brainpower.


Axismaster also wrote: "and the elimination of a potential human is wrong. A fetus has the potential to become a human, so we should not take that away."

Now you are making the silly claim that potentials must be fulfilled. You DO know, don't you, that you have the potential to fall down a stairway and break your neck? Why shouldn't that potential be fulfilled? Or your potential to become a slave? Or your potential to be kidnapped by sadistic torturers? The FACT is, NO potential MUST be fulfilled. To pick and choose potentials to fulfill is something persons can do, but NO fetus has the brainpower to do that. Do note that persons are basically only allowed to choose potentials for THEMSELVES to fulfill; they are not generally allowed to choose what potentials other persons must fulfill (other than basic education of children, required for continuity of a culture). Yes, persons can also choose potentials to be fulfilled by non-persons, as when a horse is harnessed to a plow. But "ownership" applies in those cases, and a human fetus, a nonperson, is ALWAYS "owned" by its mother (who sometimes offers the father a voice in the matter). Who are you to say otherwise, and on what grounds might you say otherwise?

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Axismaster also wrote: "Now you can complain about emotional arguments in favor of life, but I would like to say that if you are so aloof that you cannot believe something until you see it proven by exact science, then you yourself are blind to others,"

That does **NOT** follow. Do look up the definition of "gullible" sometime.


Axismaster also wrote: "so don't ever try to talk to me about improving society, because yourself must be your only concern."

FALSE. The condition of Planet Earth AND the human life on it is such that both can be improved by reducing the number of humans infesting it. Consider an example from History: When the Black Death wiped out 1/3 the population of Europe, the remaing 2/3 of the population, after recovering from the horror, found themselves in possesion of 3/3 of the wealth. Feudalism suffered a fatal blow, and the modern "middle class" was actually born out of that horror. SOCIETY BENEFITED HUGELY, in the long run.

HOWEVER, I do **NOT** recommend repeating that scenario; it was indeed horrible and repeating it **IS** unnecessary. Instead I recommend vast amounts of birth control (and freedom for women to use it). I recommend allowing all unwanted unborn humans (which will mostly be the result of failed birth control) to be aborted. And I recommend discouraging the wanting of offspring until they can be raised in decent conditions. (If you are experiencing abject poverty, how can giving yourself another mouth-to-feed reduce your abject poverty? And what child deserves to be raised in abject poverty, anyway? And finally, on what grounds can Person A insist that OTHER people support Person A's offspring, just because Person A selfishly wants to have offspring?) Can you find anying tyrannical and inhumane in those recommendations? OF COURSE you will complain about the abortion part of it, but that is only because you do not accept the FACT that unborn humans are DEMONSTRABLY no more special than ordinary animals. Yes, they have POTENTIALS that ordinary animals don't have, but there STILL is NO requirement that potentials be fulfilled!
 
Axismaster wrote: "I suppose you will never accept my beliefs no matter what I say. At the same time I will never accept your pro-choice beliefs that a fetus is not a full human being. This is why I think we should leave the abortion issue up to the people in a direct democratic vote. Tell me now, would there be anything wrong with that? Regardless of whether my views win or lose, I see nothing wrong with a democratic vote, do you?"

OKAY, How about this?
Here's a series of Yes/No questions; pretend they are on a ballot:
1. If Mr. Worf, a nonhuman of the fictional "Star Trek" universe,
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
2. If Chewbacca, a nonhuman of the fictional "Star Wars" universe,
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
4. If Sarek, Mr. Spock's father, a nonhuman of the fictional "Star
Trek" universe existed for real, should he be considered a person?
3. If Number Five, a robot in the fictional "Short Circuit" movie,
existed for real, should it be considered a person?
4. If C3PO, a robot in the fictional "Star Wars" universe,
existed for real, should it be considered a person?
5. If Draco, a fictional dragon in the movie "DragonHeart",
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
6. If the Scarecrow and the Tin Woodman, characters in the fictional
Land of Oz, existed for real, should they be considered persons?
7. If the Cowardly Lion, a character in the fictional Land of Oz,
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
8. Should ORDINARY lions be considered persons?
9. If Mr. Ed, a fictional talking horse in an old TV show,
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
10. Should ORDINARY horses be considered persons?
11. If Bugs Bunny and Roger Rabbit, fictional cartoon characters
appearing in the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?", existed
for real, should they be considered persons?
12. Should ORDINARY bunnies and rabbits be considered persons?
13. If Mickey Mouse, a fictional cartoon character, existed for real,
should he be considered a person?
14. Should ORDINARY mice be considered persons?
15. If Porky Pig, a fictional cartoon character, existed for real,
should he be considered a person?
16. Should ORDINARY pigs be considered persons?
17. If Snoopy the Dog, a fictional cartoon character,
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
18. Should ORDINARY dogs be considered persons?
19. If Felix the Cat, a fictional cartoon character,
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
20. Should ORDINARY cats be considered persons?
21. Should persons be distinguished from animals by
whether or not they are human?
22. God is described as a purely nonphysical entity,
nonhuman therefore, and is believed to exist by many
humans. If that is true, should God be considered a person?
23. Should persons be distinguished from animals by the
mental capabilities they exhibit?
24. Since it is a scientific fact that ordinary animals
like horses, pigs, cats and dogs exhibit more mental
capabilities than an unborn human (for most of a pregnancy,
even an ordinary mouse has more mental capabilities),
should an unborn human be considered a person?
 
FutureIncoming said:
Axismaster wrote: "I suppose you will never accept my beliefs no matter what I say. At the same time I will never accept your pro-choice beliefs that a fetus is not a full human being. This is why I think we should leave the abortion issue up to the people in a direct democratic vote. Tell me now, would there be anything wrong with that? Regardless of whether my views win or lose, I see nothing wrong with a democratic vote, do you?"

OKAY, How about this?
Here's a series of Yes/No questions; pretend they are on a ballot:
1. If Mr. Worf, a nonhuman of the fictional "Star Trek" universe,
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
2. If Chewbacca, a nonhuman of the fictional "Star Wars" universe,
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
4. If Sarek, Mr. Spock's father, a nonhuman of the fictional "Star
Trek" universe existed for real, should he be considered a person?
3. If Number Five, a robot in the fictional "Short Circuit" movie,
existed for real, should it be considered a person?
4. If C3PO, a robot in the fictional "Star Wars" universe,
existed for real, should it be considered a person?
5. If Draco, a fictional dragon in the movie "DragonHeart",
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
6. If the Scarecrow and the Tin Woodman, characters in the fictional
Land of Oz, existed for real, should they be considered persons?
7. If the Cowardly Lion, a character in the fictional Land of Oz,
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
8. Should ORDINARY lions be considered persons?
9. If Mr. Ed, a fictional talking horse in an old TV show,
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
10. Should ORDINARY horses be considered persons?
11. If Bugs Bunny and Roger Rabbit, fictional cartoon characters
appearing in the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?", existed
for real, should they be considered persons?
12. Should ORDINARY bunnies and rabbits be considered persons?
13. If Mickey Mouse, a fictional cartoon character, existed for real,
should he be considered a person?
14. Should ORDINARY mice be considered persons?
15. If Porky Pig, a fictional cartoon character, existed for real,
should he be considered a person?
16. Should ORDINARY pigs be considered persons?
17. If Snoopy the Dog, a fictional cartoon character,
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
18. Should ORDINARY dogs be considered persons?
19. If Felix the Cat, a fictional cartoon character,
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
20. Should ORDINARY cats be considered persons?
21. Should persons be distinguished from animals by
whether or not they are human?
22. God is described as a purely nonphysical entity,
nonhuman therefore, and is believed to exist by many
humans. If that is true, should God be considered a person?
23. Should persons be distinguished from animals by the
mental capabilities they exhibit?
24. Since it is a scientific fact that ordinary animals
like horses, pigs, cats and dogs exhibit more mental
capabilities than an unborn human (for most of a pregnancy,
even an ordinary mouse has more mental capabilities),
should an unborn human be considered a person?

Answer the question! Would there be anything wrong with a democratic vote on abortion! Would you be opposed to that? You see, you can't handle the truth! You can't let the people vote because you know the popular opinion may endanger your beliefs. Tell me, would you support or oppose a democratic vote on abortion? Yes or no. That is all. They would never put those stupid things on the ballot anyway so it is a non-issue. Quit ducking my questions and answer!
 
FutureIncoming said:
Felicity quoted: "It is true that every fetus is an individual ANIMAL ORGANISM. Whoop-te-do. You are trying to extract more from a simple statement than is actually there. You are still basing your argument on faulty reasoning!"

"It's a ladder rather than a chain of linking circles. It's a web of clusters of dependant information rather than a venn diagram. You skip a few rungs on the ladder of describing human life when you want to call a fetus an animal. You've heard of Kingdom Phylum Class Order Family Genus Species? Each new term describes the organisms in that group a little more precisely... When you call a fetus in a human being's womb an animal...you skip over all those steps that each help to more precisely define the individual "thing" you are talking about."

HAH! NONE of those fancy labels change the biological fact that humans are animals, and NONE of those fancy labels gives a human fetus any more brainpower than an animal. THEREFORE YOU ARE STILL USING FAULTY REASONING, to imply that a human fetus is more than it actually is. Just like I wrote in what you quoted above.




Felicity quoted: "And you DO know, don't you, that the phrase refers to various entities sometimes called "brownies" or "elves" or "wee folk"? NONHUMANS, THEY ARE DESCRIBED AS. AND PERSONS ALSO,"

--and wrote: "Check out your own challenge, darlin'. I said all persons are human because IN THE REAL WORLD...that's the facts, jack. But in your fantasy land...yeah...brownies and elves and wee folk were imagined to have rational wills, no?...so no duh they were called "people.""

You are still ignoring FACTS. In this particular case, despite the fact that NOWADAYS we regard such entities as brownies as being fanciful, THAT WAS NOT THE CASE IN THOSE DAYS, when the phrase "little people" originated. They took such things VERY SERIOUSLY, just as they took seriously the notion that devils and angels walked the Earth.

And in a musing vein of "hmmmm....", consider this: http://ufocasebook.com/Aurora.html (I saw a TV show about that not long ago, which mentioned finding a piece of metal that was 95% aluminum and 5% iron, an alloy VERY difficult to make on Earth, due to the different densities of the metals, but easy to make in the zero-G environment of a space factory.) All it would take is for some similar event in past centuries, with survivors, for the myth of "little people" to come into existence. Not to mention that the sub-group called "leprechauns" were considered magical, and according to Clarke's Third Law, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." http://www.lsi.usp.br/~rbianchi/clarke/ACC.Laws.html Hmmmm..., indeed! Also, do note there is NO faulty reasoning in this part of my post; there is only some unverified data upon which the reasoning is based, and I have NOT claimed that that data is totally valid. Here I am simply presenting food for thought, while you have tended to make bald pronouncements, such as the quote above that more-or-less states the "real world" excludes nonhuman intelligences, just because we don't routinely encounter them. That IS faulty reasoning! Especially for someone who elsewhere claims that there exists an intelligent nonhuman often referred-to as "God". It is hypocritically faulty reasoning!




Felicity quoted: " Human life only matters to humans, AS THEY SUBJECTIVELY CHOOSE."

--and wrote: "Humans choose. Not teenagers, not Asian women, not dentists....HUMANS subjectively identify those qualities that separate them from the rest of the animal kingdom."

MORE FAULTY REASONING. NOTHING can "separate" humans from the animal kingdom; we are as FULLY a part of that kingdom as we are fully human. A more accurate word is "distinguish"; as for example, "In a crowd of various animals, humans can be usually distinguished by these traits..." That is, humans are animals AND chordates AND vertebrates AND mammals AND primates AND apes; we do not lose any of the subsidiary characteristics just because we happen to have additional features that are unique to humans.

Now, getting back to another part of what you wrote, yes, humans DO choose how they go about distinguishing their group from non-humans. And, humans do NOT need ALL the possible traits of humans to make that determination. A common minimum suffices, as I've already written elsewhere. Thus immature humans such as first-grade shool-children are part of "humanity", even though they lack the ability to reproduce (which IS, if you recall, one of the key things that has often been used to define "life", and not that tiny subset of life called humanity!).

Similarly, unborn humans are nevertheless humans, even though they exhibit no more brainpower than ordinary animals. IT IS THE HUMANS THAT HAVE THE BRAINPOWER THAT DO THE CHOOSING, as to what qualifies as human --AND to what degree human-ness MATTERS. That last thing is the key thing you have chosen to ignore. Some humans DO choose to regard unborn humans as not-mattering, because they lack brainpower (and it is more-than-animal brainpower that matters to them), while some humans choose to regard unborn humans as mattering, despite their lack of brainpower (because other purely animal traits, excluding brainpower, matters to them). This choice IS entirely subjective, which fact you ALSO ignored. You have NO argument which can require all humans-who-can-choose, to regard all unborn humans as mattering. But **I** have an argument for **YOU**. Brainpower matters BECAUSE IT CAN CHOOSE. Without the brainpower, NO human could claim that humans matter. So, empowered humans who dismiss the mindless unborn do so because it is CONSISTENT to do so. Likewise, brain-dead humans on life-support are unplugged because when the brainpower-to-choose is gone, the life doesn't matter. Meanwhile, YOU ARE INCONSISTENT. You use your brainpower to choose to claim that brainpower you used to make that choice doesn't matter as much as other things! Such inconsistency is just another sign of faulty reasoning on your part!

{continued next message}
I'm not sure what you want me to address...I never disagreed that biologically human are animals in their physical structure....really FI...from sentient giant squid to leprechauns to weird alloys....you are aware those tangents make you look a little nutty:confused: ..I prefer to think you're just geeky because I have geek qualities myself and I can identify with it, but...really....one begins to wonder...:doh

Anyway...if the gist is that that brain power can choose...not so...you have to be free to act upon that internal desire to have it be a choice. You are arguing a "capacity" versus an actual demonstrable "ability" which you fault me for arguing. Many people CAN'T make up their minds on things...don't KNOW what they want...it doesn't undermine their personhood--they have the CAPACITY, but can't effect it--can't make it function...Again...just because one CAN't make a choice due to mental illness or physical incapacitation, or immaturity...doesn't change the fact they are considered human beings with human rights bestowed upon their personhood by virtue of the rational will that distinguishes them from other creatures and demonstrates their dominance in the provable universe that is known to we humans. If that is so...that born, but incapacitated humans (note the "capacity" root in that word) still are afforded basic human rights--what distinguishes them from fetuses?

But beside that...even as you argue against my point--you make my point such as in your explanation of the reproduction abilities of pre-pubescent...nowhere is there established that "the common minimum traits" required to be human must DEMONSTRATE the ability of a rational will.

For about the Ga-Jillionth time the VERY FIRST post I gave you on the now infamous Explain Your Reasoning thread stated "It is true that many humans are incapable of that type of conceptualization--such as the unborn and severely retarded or physically traumatized--but as a species--it is how man is made--it is mankind's "nature"--in the totality of his being. Sans illness or trauma, the nature of the human person is able to comprehend the abstract and extrapolate meaning from it as well as determine his course via self-will as demonstrated in individual's lifespan."

So.... if the INDIVIDUAL is of a SPECIES that has within its traits a RATIONAL WILL--then every member of that species is a PERSON. It is the identification of the SPECIES that demonstrates the PERSONHOOD. (as I have saidandsaidandsaid and always said.)
 
Felicity said:
I'm not sure what you want me to address...I never disagreed that biologically human are animals in their physical structure....really FI...from sentient giant squid to leprechauns to weird alloys....you are aware those tangents make you look a little nutty:confused: ..I prefer to think you're just geeky because I have geek qualities myself and I can identify with it, but...really....one begins to wonder...:doh

Anyway...if the gist is that that brain power can choose...not so...you have to be free to act upon that internal desire to have it be a choice. You are arguing a "capacity" versus an actual demonstrable "ability" which you fault me for arguing. Many people CAN'T make up their minds on things...don't KNOW what they want...it doesn't undermine their personhood--they have the CAPACITY, but can't effect it--can't make it function...Again...just because one CAN't make a choice due to mental illness or physical incapacitation, or immaturity...doesn't change the fact they are considered human beings with human rights bestowed upon their personhood by virtue of the rational will that distinguishes them from other creatures and demonstrates their dominance in the provable universe that is known to we humans. If that is so...that born, but incapacitated humans (note the "capacity" root in that word) still are afforded basic human rights--what distinguishes them from fetuses?

But beside that...even as you argue against my point--you make my point such as in your explanation of the reproduction abilities of pre-pubescent...nowhere is there established that "the common minimum traits" required to be human must DEMONSTRATE the ability of a rational will.

For about the Ga-Jillionth time the VERY FIRST post I gave you on the now infamous Explain Your Reasoning thread stated "It is true that many humans are incapable of that type of conceptualization--such as the unborn and severely retarded or physically traumatized--but as a species--it is how man is made--it is mankind's "nature"--in the totality of his being. Sans illness or trauma, the nature of the human person is able to comprehend the abstract and extrapolate meaning from it as well as determine his course via self-will as demonstrated in individual's lifespan."

So.... if the INDIVIDUAL is of a SPECIES that has within its traits a RATIONAL WILL--then every member of that species is a PERSON. It is the identification of the SPECIES that demonstrates the PERSONHOOD. (as I have saidandsaidandsaid and always said.)

He can't define humans as humans, that is his problem. He has a very finicky definition of humanity, of when killing is wrong, and even if it is killing.
 
Axismaster said:
Future's sig...

I'm waiting for a pro-lifer to successfully take up this challenge:
"Define "person" to be Universally accurate, regardless of physical nature, to distinguish people from mere animals, anywhere.
For example, if God exists, is non-biological, and is a person, then God is a person because {--put definitive criteria here--}.
After that, please explain how unborn humans are so different from mere animals that they should be classed as persons, too.
Good Luck!
I am: That I am.
My existence is selfevident. If you require "proof" of this, then your eyes are already closed, and you are blind to anything I could show you.

It is not enough that you be open to possability of opening your eyes, you must then actually do so. At that point, I need show you nothing, because you will see for yourself.
 
FutureIncoming said:
OKAY, How about this?
Here's a series of Yes/No questions; pretend they are on a ballot:
1...1. If Mr. Worf, a nonhuman of the fictional "Star Trek" universe,
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
2...2. If Chewbacca, a nonhuman of the fictional "Star Wars" universe,
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
3...4. If Sarek, Mr. Spock's father, a nonhuman of the fictional "Star
Trek" universe existed for real, should he be considered a person?
4...3. If Number Five, a robot in the fictional "Short Circuit" movie,
existed for real, should it be considered a person?
5...4. If C3PO, a robot in the fictional "Star Wars" universe,
existed for real, should it be considered a person?
6...5. If Draco, a fictional dragon in the movie "DragonHeart",
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
7...6. If the Scarecrow and the Tin Woodman, characters in the fictional
Land of Oz, existed for real, should they be considered persons?
8...7. If the Cowardly Lion, a character in the fictional Land of Oz,
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
9...8. Should ORDINARY lions be considered persons?
11...10...9. If Mr. Ed, a fictional talking horse in an old TV show,
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
12...10. Should ORDINARY horses be considered persons?
13...11. If Bugs Bunny and Roger Rabbit, fictional cartoon characters
appearing in the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?", existed
for real, should they be considered persons?
14...12. Should ORDINARY bunnies and rabbits be considered persons?
15...13. If Mickey Mouse, a fictional cartoon character, existed for real,
should he be considered a person?
16...14. Should ORDINARY mice be considered persons?
17...15. If Porky Pig, a fictional cartoon character, existed for real,
should he be considered a person?
18...16. Should ORDINARY pigs be considered persons?
19...17. If Snoopy the Dog, a fictional cartoon character,
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
20...18. Should ORDINARY dogs be considered persons?
21...19. If Felix the Cat, a fictional cartoon character,
existed for real, should he be considered a person?
22...20. Should ORDINARY cats be considered persons?
23...21. Should persons be distinguished from animals by
whether or not they are human?
24...22. God is described as a purely nonphysical entity,
nonhuman therefore, and is believed to exist by many
humans. If that is true, should God be considered a person?
25...23. Should persons be distinguished from animals by the
mental capabilities they exhibit?
26...24. Since it is a scientific fact that ordinary animals
like horses, pigs, cats and dogs exhibit more mental
capabilities than an unborn human (for most of a pregnancy,
even an ordinary mouse has more mental capabilities),
should an unborn human be considered a person?

Are the "voices" dictating?

Just for fun... (BTW...your numbering is screwed up...making it more difficult to play...so I re-numbered them)

1-3 sure...rational will inherent to living species.
4-5 nope...not "alive" and no "free will"--it is "programming"
6 sure...rational will inherent to living species.
7-8 depends...how did they get the rational will? How they "came into "being" is unknown...and ultimately, even in the story, they were Dorothy's IMAGINATION.
9. no...no rational will
10. Wasn't there some question as to the sanity of the dude that heard him speak? and as a species, horses don't have a rational will...if we discovered something about horses that has been hence unknown...maybe! Hey...BTW, Tom Swift...they guy that wrote the "Modest Proposal" we've talked about had horses MORE human than humans in Gulliver's Travels...they were called the Whinnums or something like that and humans were Yahoos.
11. See above.

12-21 are variations on 10 and 11. same vein.
22. Can't answer. (it's worded weirdly) Animals and humans are not syntacticly equivalent since animals is a MUCH broader term than "human." However human animals are persons whereas cat animals are not. "Worf" animals would be human, whereas giant squid animals are not.
23. Yes.
24. No....but even so the two are not equivalent and can't be compared as equivalent.
25. Yes...see the post I put up above.


Gee...that was...fun....;) but I was kinda disappointed with 12-21
 
Last edited:
Axismaster said:
Future's sig...

I'm waiting for a pro-lifer to successfully take up this challenge:
"Define "person" to be Universally accurate, regardless of physical nature, to distinguish people from mere animals, anywhere.
For example, if God exists, is non-biological, and is a person, then God is a person because {--put definitive criteria here--}.
After that, please explain how unborn humans are so different from mere animals that they should be classed as persons, too.
Good Luck!
Out of sheer morbid curiosity: "person" is an American legal term, so are you looking for a universal legal definition of "person", or something ells?
 
Busta said:
Out of sheer morbid curiosity: "person" is an American legal term, so are you looking for a universal legal definition of "person", or something ells?

This is the reason people don't vote for liberals, they can never talk plainly enough for the average joe to understand.
 
Axismaster said:
This is the reason people don't vote for liberals, they can never talk plainly enough for the average joe to understand.

Well, maybe if the conservatives would stop lowering education standards, they WOULD be able to understand.
 
Stace said:
Well, maybe if the conservatives would stop lowering education standards, they WOULD be able to understand.
That makes no sense, Stace...I mean, what with the no child left behind thing and teacher qualification standards ever increasing as a result of republican legislation...:confused:
 
Felicity said:
That makes no sense, Stace...I mean, what with the no child left behind thing and teacher qualification standards ever increasing as a result of republican legislation...:confused:

In case you didn't see what I told Navy Pride, No Child Left Behind is a joke, it's more like Every Child Left Behind. Teacher qualification standards may be increasing, but they are forever lowering the passing score on standardized tests, because too many children don't WANT to learn, and therefore don't put forth the effort, and too many parents treat school as a free daycare.
 
Felicity said:
That makes no sense, Stace...I mean, what with the no child left behind thing and teacher qualification standards ever increasing as a result of republican legislation...:confused:

Sigh. The way that the No Child Left Behind Act has been implemented has created de facto "unfunded mandates".

National Education Association said:
The Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA), renamed "No Child Left Behind" (NCLB) in 2001, established laudable goals -- high standards, accountability for all, and the belief that all children can learn, regardless of their background or ability.

Unfortunately, the law is seriously flawed and underfunded. But the importance of NCLB's goals demands that we work to "fix and fund" the law.

The No Child Left Behind Act, ironically, has left children behind.
 
You do realize THE Ed Kennedy partnered on the No Child Left Behind thing...so either way you look at it...it's not all conservatives or liberals.
 
Felicity said:
You do realize THE Ed Kennedy partnered on the No Child Left Behind thing...so either way you look at it...it's not all conservatives or liberals.

No, but I blame mostly the conservatives because it seems to me, a lot of states with conservative governors are the ones with the worst education systems, and we have had a federal government made up mostly of conservatives for the past few years. If this were happening under a liberal government, I'd be placing the blame on them, so I'm not playing partisan favoritism here...
 
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