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Abortion and the Death Penalty, why pro-choicers are wrong.

If people were 'prepared for" the possibility of a child, they wouldn't be using birth control.
LOL BC is to mitigate the risk, it is not in fact 100% perfect.


Please explain how having an abortion is NOT taking responsibility?

Is it irresponsible for someone to recognize when they are not ready, willing, and ABLE to do something? IMO, that is the MOST responsible person... the person that can recognize that and act accordingly. Someone who knows they are not ready, willing, or able to support a child and have one anyway are most decidedly IRresponsible. In NO WAY is that responsible behavior.

Is using the pill or an IUD that can expel fertilized eggs irresponsible too?
Abortions happen to kill an innocent child, that's the whole problem with it.
 
LOL BC is to mitigate the risk, it is not in fact 100% perfect.
No ****. Really? It's not a 100% perfect?!

Anywho, that's not the point. The point is, if someone was prepared to and ready to have a child, why the **** would they be trying NOT to? Someone who was perfectly okay with having a kid wouldn't use birth control because, well, they were ready to have a kid.

Abortions happen to kill an innocent child, that's the whole problem with it.
That is a matter of opinion. But even if you believe that, then you must logically believe the pill and IUDs do the same thing.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Everyone please cease the personal attacks, or there will be further consequences.
 
No ****. Really? It's not a 100% perfect?!

Anywho, that's not the point. The point is, if someone was prepared to and ready to have a child, why the **** would they be trying NOT to? Someone who was perfectly okay with having a kid wouldn't use birth control because, well, they were ready to have a kid.


That is a matter of opinion. But even if you believe that, then you must logically believe the pill and IUDs do the same thing.

That's not true. You may not want a child, but you, being a responsible person, are prepared to deal with one IF it should happen. See how that works?

IUD's keep the egg from sticking to the wall of the uterus, and the pill keeps you from ovulating. The IUD could possibly result in an... abortion, but they are not very popular nor effective. Hell my ex got knocked up by her exboyfriend with one of those in. Cracked me up.
 
I'm a pro-DP, anti-abortion kinda guy. Every time some pro-abortionist brings up the DP in a debate on abortion I wanna b***h slap them for trying such a dishonest tack.

Why do I feel this way? Let's break the two instances down shall we?

1. Abortion: An innocent child is killed because the person with the power to bring them into this world, and who had a hand in their creation decides they don't want the hassle of a child.

2. Death Penalty: A person, through their own actions volunteers for the penalty of death through their own actions. In this case, killing one or more other people in an egregious manner.


Do you see the difference here? Innocence. One child who had no say in their life is denied the right to live, in the other a person gives up their right to life through their own actions.

The two are as different as night and day. Each time you, pro-choice person, bring up the death penalty, you show how morally corrupt your position is and how you have no moral guidance in your life.

Well said. It is those distinctions why someone who is pro-life can support the death penalty and be against abortion. Maybe the abortion is crowd is worried that in the event abortion becomes illegal and treated no different than murder,then many of themselves would be facing the same punishments as other murderers if that day were to ever come.
 
That's not true. You may not want a child, but you, being a responsible person, are prepared to deal with one IF it should happen. See how that works?

IUD's keep the egg from sticking to the wall of the uterus, and the pill keeps you from ovulating. The IUD could possibly result in an... abortion, but they are not very popular nor effective. Hell my ex got knocked up by her exboyfriend with one of those in. Cracked me up.

Women sometimes still ovulate on the pill; and the eggs are sometimes fertilized. The pill, however, make conditions in the uterus inhospitable to the zygote, so that implantation does not occur.
More or less same deal as the IUD. It causes the fertilized egg to be flushed from the vagina rather than implanting in the uterine wall: a mini-miscarriage, so early that the woman never realizes she was pregnant.

Are you now claiming that "personhood/ humanity/ whatever" occurs not at fertilization but rather at implantation?
So it's okay to murder zygotes (ie, fertilized eggs) but not to dislodge implanted zygotes?

Because, I hope you realize, there's no consensus on any of this among anti-choicers.
There are as many ideas about what constitutes "the murder of innocent children" as there are anti-choicers.
Not that anybody sane really pays much attention to their delusional blatherings.
 
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Women sometimes still ovulate on the pill; and the eggs are sometimes fertilized. The pill, however, make conditions in the uterus inhospitable to the zygote, so that implantation does not occur.
More or less same deal as the IUD. It causes the fertilized egg to be flushed from the vagina rather than implanting in the uterine wall: a mini-miscarriage, so early that the woman never realizes she was pregnant.

Are you now claiming that "personhood/ humanity/ whatever" occurs not at fertilization but rather at implantation?
So it's okay to murder zygotes (ie, fertilized eggs) but not to dislodge implanted zygotes?

Because, I hope you realize, there's no consensus on any of this among anti-choicers.
There are as many ideas about what constitutes "the murder of innocent children" as there are anti-choicers.
Not that anybody sane really pays much attention to their delusional blatherings.

Yes I understand that the pill isn't perfect...

And I'm not gonna get into the "well if maybe this happens that means you support killing zygotes because..." line of ignorance, because that's what you are arguing is my stance, it's not.

BC that prevents conception, is the the good BC, but like ANYTHING in life, **** happens, and that's why life is so intersting.

You are trying to pin me into an extremist logic trap, and it ain't happening
 
Yes I understand that the pill isn't perfect...

And I'm not gonna get into the "well if maybe this happens that means you support killing zygotes because..." line of ignorance, because that's what you are arguing is my stance, it's not.

BC that prevents conception, is the the good BC, but like ANYTHING in life, **** happens, and that's why life is so intersting.

You are trying to pin me into an extremist logic trap, and it ain't happening

No, I'm not trying to "pin you into" anything; I just want you to be honest.
You state: "IUD's keep the egg from sticking to the wall of the uterus, and the pill keeps you from ovulating."

I want you to admit that you're aware that IUDs (and birth control pills, which often don't "keep you from ovulating") don't just prevent "eggs" from burrowing into the walls of the uterus and implanting, they prevent fertilized eggs- zygotes- from implanting in the uterine wall. They cause miscarriages. Very early miscarriages.
If zygotes, embryos and fetuses are "children" in your view, then IUDs and birth control pills- and in fact all contraceptives other than barrier methods such as condoms- kill children.

I just want you to be honest about what your position is.
You state that you are aware of this, and don't care. You state that "**** happens, and that's why life is so intersting. [sic]"

I'm glad you're willing to own up to the fact that you either don't really consider Z/E/Fs to be humans, or that you don't really care whether humans are killed because women don't want to be pregnant.
 
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Yes I understand that the pill isn't perfect...

And I'm not gonna get into the "well if maybe this happens that means you support killing zygotes because..." line of ignorance, because that's what you are arguing is my stance, it's not.

BC that prevents conception, is the the good BC, but like ANYTHING in life, **** happens, and that's why life is so intersting.

You are trying to pin me into an extremist logic trap, and it ain't happening

Bro, this is still confirming my initial post. I respect the ability to be anti-abortion and pro-death penalty without being a hypocrite as many on the other side will try to claim.

I was posting the different premises in order to explain to pro-choice people how the two concepts are non-contradictory. It's because if at all possible, you want to protect what you consider to be innocent human life, but you realize this desire is not reality, so you allow for some mitigated risks (like birth control and teh death penalty) to achieve your final goal.

It's logical as long as you accept certain premises, which you do, that are unprovable as well as unDISprovable.

I clearly didn;t protray that correctly in my first post.

What the latter half of that first post was doing was attempting to explain the VIEWS of your oposition on the matter and how from their perspective it is ALSO non-contradictory.


Their view ALSO requires certain premises to be accepted which are unprovable and unDISprovable as well.

This is why, altyhough I am pro-choice, I am also very against a national standard on the issue in any direction. I can see both points fo view, and I acknowlge the validity of both.

On the death penalty, I disagree with it universally for reasons I've given which are unrelated to the potential innocence or guilt of the persons sentenced for the crimes themselves.

In other words, I'm not attackin gyour view. I find it valid. I disagree with both portions, but not for the reasons most people do.
 
It's not quite a universal though. I'm mostly anti-abortion. I don't like it, I am usually against outright bans on everything because you never know with specific situations and things need to be handled on an individual bases. But I'm also anti-war and anti-death penalty.
 
It's not quite a universal though. I'm mostly anti-abortion. I don't like it, I am usually against outright bans on everything because you never know with specific situations and things need to be handled on an individual bases. But I'm also anti-war and anti-death penalty.

Your premise would probably be somewhat different from other people's, then. He might think that war and the death penalty are necessary to achieve the protection of innocent life to the best of his ability. Whereas you don't think those things help protect innocent life to the best of your ability.

And people who may be pro-abortion and anti-death penalty might have the same initial premise, but they define human life differently. All these views have their validity, and are determined by perspective. I don;t think any one perspective can possibly be right on all issues. (Including my own)

Which is why I often support issues even if it is contrary to my own moral coding, however that coding came to be.

I don;t see any issue as blakc and white. I think soem have fewer shades fo gray than others, and sometimnes I feel the only gray is a very dark gray, but it still doesn't set up the dichotomy of certain beliefs that many people seem to feel exists.

I prefeer to let small groups decide for themselves how they want to live, so long as it doesn't extend outside of the sphere that directly influences them.
 
Your premise would probably be somewhat different from other people's, then. He might think that war and the death penalty are necessary to achieve the protection of innocent life to the best of his ability. Whereas you don't think those things help protect innocent life to the best of your ability.

And people who may be pro-abortion and anti-death penalty might have the same initial premise, but they define human life differently. All these views have their validity, and are determined by perspective. I don;t think any one perspective can possibly be right on all issues. (Including my own)

Which is why I often support issues even if it is contrary to my own moral coding, however that coding came to be.

I don;t see any issue as blakc and white. I think soem have fewer shades fo gray than others, and sometimnes I feel the only gray is a very dark gray, but it still doesn't set up the dichotomy of certain beliefs that many people seem to feel exists.

I prefeer to let small groups decide for themselves how they want to live, so long as it doesn't extend outside of the sphere that directly influences them.



When the human rights of more than half the world's population are at issue, "seeing things in shades of gray" is an impossibility.
Universally protected human rights for all people is the only acceptable answer.

Would you prefer to let 'small groups of people" work out amongst themselves whether blacks should still be segregated (or even enslaved)? So that some states have Jim Crow laws in effect or even reinstitute slavery, while others do not?
And government mandated protections for civil and human rights of blacks only affect around 13% of the population (blacks), while government mandated protections for the civil and human rights of females affect slightly more than half the population; so which is more important, I'll leave to you to figure out.
Personally, I'd rather be enslaved and put to work in a field or cleaning somebody's house than enslaved and forced to bear children against my will.
 
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Abortion is a choice that requires the death of an innocent child.


Who gives a flying crap?
I've bolded the relevant portion of your statement.
You're damn right abortion is a choice.
And it will remain one. A safe, legal choice.
 
Who gives a flying crap?
I've bolded the relevant portion of your statement.
You're damn right abortion is a choice.
And it will remain one. A safe, legal choice.

That doesn't change the fact it's both morally, and ethically wrong.
 
That doesn't change the fact it's both morally, and ethically wrong.

In your opinion.
I repeat, who gives a flying crap?
If you don't like abortions, don't have one.
Oops, you can't, anyway. You're a man.
See there? Problem solved.
 
In your opinion.
I repeat, who gives a flying crap?
If you don't like abortions, don't have one.
Oops, you can't, anyway. You're a man.
See there? Problem solved.

I can't have one, this is right, and if I COULD.. I wouldn't. I won't kill another human just to make my life easier. I have this character flaw of doing the right thing even when it would be easier to take a different path.

I aslo, don't have to support the death of innocent children, and I CAN and do, actively (not just in debate on line) work towards barring abortion, and one day, we WILL end abortion in America. And the world will be a better place.
 
I can't have one, this is right, and if I COULD.. I wouldn't. I won't kill another human just to make my life easier. I have this character flaw of doing the right thing even when it would be easier to take a different path.

I aslo, don't have to support the death of innocent children, and I CAN and do, actively (not just in debate on line) work towards barring abortion, and one day, we WILL end abortion in America. And the world will be a better place.

Haha. Sure thing, Don Quixote. :lol:
Good luck with that.
 
Condiment

"Condiment"
1069, why do you relish death?
ms_relish_full.jpg
 
What is the difference between a criminal and a child in the womb?

One has to do something to die, the other just dies because another doesn't want the hassle.

MO is if you are against abortion then you should be against the DP as well. Murder is murder. A wrong isn't corrected with a wrong. The DP is vengence and I'd think this is sinful to God, plus we are taking a life He created.
 
I can't have one, this is right, and if I COULD.. I wouldn't. I won't kill another human just to make my life easier. I have this character flaw of doing the right thing even when it would be easier to take a different path.

Many people opposed to abortion change their minds when they themselves are the ones needing abortion. IOW, you don't really know what you would do until it IS you.
"The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion" - When the Anti-Choice Choose

"Abortion is a highly personal decision that many women are sure they'll never have to think about until they're suddenly faced with an unexpected pregnancy. But this can happen to anyone, including women who are strongly anti-choice. So what does an anti-choice woman do when she experiences an unwanted pregnancy herself? Often, she will grin and bear it, so to speak, but frequently, she opts for the solution she would deny to other women -- abortion....
Although few studies have been made of this phenomenon, a study done in 1981 (1) found that 24% of women who had abortions considered the procedure morally wrong, and 7% of women who'd had abortions disagreed with the statement, "Any woman who wants an abortion should be permitted to obtain it legally." A 1994/95 survey (2,3) of nearly 10,000 abortion patients showed 18% of women having abortions are born-again or Evangelical Christians. Many of these women are likely anti-choice. The survey also showed that Catholic women have an abortion rate 29% higher than Protestant women. A Planned Parenthood handbook on abortion notes that nearly half of all abortions are for women who describe themselves as born-again Christian, Evangelical Christian, or Catholic. (4)

According to a 1987 article, Abortion Clinics' Toughest Cases,(5) "Physicians and clinics frequently terminate pregnancies for women who believe abortion is 'murder' and 'a sin' but who are not anti-abortion activists.....
Many anti-choice women are convinced that their need for abortion is unique -- not like those "other" women -- even though they have abortions for the same sorts of reasons. Anti-choice women often expect special treatment from clinic staff. Some demand an abortion immediately, wanting to skip important preliminaries such as taking a history or waiting for blood test results. Frequently, anti-abortion women will refuse counseling (such women are generally turned away or referred to an outside counselor because counseling at clinics is mandatory). Some women insist on sneaking in the back door and hiding in a room away from other patients. Others refuse to sit in the waiting room with women they call "sluts" and "trash." Or if they do, they get angry when other patients in the waiting room talk or laugh, because it proves to them that women get abortions casually, for "convenience". "

I aslo, don't have to support the death of innocent children, and I CAN and do, actively (not just in debate on line) work towards barring abortion, and one day, we WILL end abortion in America. And the world will be a better place.

You might possibly be successful in criminalizing abortion, but you won't end it. That's been tried and failed. Of course, a lot of women died unnecessarily.

Abortion in American History

"Nonetheless, having achieved their legal goal, many doctors -- including prominent members of the AMA -- went right on providing abortions. Some late-nineteenth-century observers estimated that two million were performed annually (which would mean that in Victorian America the number of abortions per capita was seven or eight times as high as it is today). "
 
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MO is if you are against abortion then you should be against the DP as well. Murder is murder. A wrong isn't corrected with a wrong. The DP is vengence and I'd think this is sinful to God, plus we are taking a life He created.

No, the Death Penalty is a voluntary program criminals opt for by their actions.

Abortion is murder of an innocent.
 
Many people opposed to abortion change their minds when they themselves are the ones needing abortion. IOW, you don't really know what you would do until it IS you.
"The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion" - When the Anti-Choice Choose

"Abortion is a highly personal decision that many women are sure they'll never have to think about until they're suddenly faced with an unexpected pregnancy. But this can happen to anyone, including women who are strongly anti-choice. So what does an anti-choice woman do when she experiences an unwanted pregnancy herself? Often, she will grin and bear it, so to speak, but frequently, she opts for the solution she would deny to other women -- abortion....
Although few studies have been made of this phenomenon, a study done in 1981 (1) found that 24% of women who had abortions considered the procedure morally wrong, and 7% of women who'd had abortions disagreed with the statement, "Any woman who wants an abortion should be permitted to obtain it legally." A 1994/95 survey (2,3) of nearly 10,000 abortion patients showed 18% of women having abortions are born-again or Evangelical Christians. Many of these women are likely anti-choice. The survey also showed that Catholic women have an abortion rate 29% higher than Protestant women. A Planned Parenthood handbook on abortion notes that nearly half of all abortions are for women who describe themselves as born-again Christian, Evangelical Christian, or Catholic. (4)

According to a 1987 article, Abortion Clinics' Toughest Cases,(5) "Physicians and clinics frequently terminate pregnancies for women who believe abortion is 'murder' and 'a sin' but who are not anti-abortion activists.....
Many anti-choice women are convinced that their need for abortion is unique -- not like those "other" women -- even though they have abortions for the same sorts of reasons. Anti-choice women often expect special treatment from clinic staff. Some demand an abortion immediately, wanting to skip important preliminaries such as taking a history or waiting for blood test results. Frequently, anti-abortion women will refuse counseling (such women are generally turned away or referred to an outside counselor because counseling at clinics is mandatory). Some women insist on sneaking in the back door and hiding in a room away from other patients. Others refuse to sit in the waiting room with women they call "sluts" and "trash." Or if they do, they get angry when other patients in the waiting room talk or laugh, because it proves to them that women get abortions casually, for "convenience". "



You might possibly be successful in criminalizing abortion, but you won't end it. That's been tried and failed. Of course, a lot of women died unnecessarily.

Abortion in American History

"Nonetheless, having achieved their legal goal, many doctors -- including prominent members of the AMA -- went right on providing abortions. Some late-nineteenth-century observers estimated that two million were performed annually (which would mean that in Victorian America the number of abortions per capita was seven or eight times as high as it is today). "
Oh the old "Women had to turn to back alley abortion" myth... one of those eh?
 
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