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Do you believe that Gays should be allowed to marry?

Do you believe that Gays should be allowed to marry?


  • Total voters
    66
LOLOL! Should I declare there is no debate and declare any debate offered to be irrelevant like you do?
The Supreme court case I linked to contains references to the studies that show children raised by their biological parents do better than children who are not. It confirms the intent of the marriage laws, it applies equal protection analysis and comes to the opposite conclusion of what is alleged. It contradicts nearly every arguement that has been offered in favor of gay marriage and confirms those offered against gay marriage. And what have you contributed..... nothing but your silly proclamations of fact unsupported by anything other than your own opinion and your inflated self worth of those opinions.

Firstly, your link is not a Supreme Court case. It is a case from the Washington State court system...please keep track of you inaccuracies. Secondly, the case report makes mention of some research that was presented in 1998 to the Washington State Legislature when discussing Bill 1130 (marriage laws). It says nothing about the exact nature of this research, and only uses the word "thrive" when discussing biological children. It does not quote the research, directly, nor does it offer links to it. On further analysis, I found no links to research of this nature for examination. Let's see if you can find it. :roll:

Further, when reading the case, the judge's decision is often contradictory. Although he discusses the concept of procreation in marriage, he, also, readily admits, that this does not prevent childless or adopting couples from marrying, nor does it reduce the government's interest in these parties wedding. This seems to illustrate that the only reason for this decision is the judge's prejudice against gay marriage. Most of the case report is contradictory in its evidence, and, primarily, bases its decision on DOMA.

Now, since you have been unable to offer any research, I will offer mine.

Firstly, this study indicates that adoptive parents are often more attentive than biological parents. Here is an excerpt:
Powell and his colleagues examined data from 13,000 households with first-graders in the family. The data was part of a detailed survey called the Early Childhood Longitudinal Study, sponsored by the U.S. Department of Education and other agencies.The researchers said 161 families in the survey were headed by two adoptive parents, and they rated better overall than families with biological parents on an array of criteria — including helping with homework, parental involvement in school, exposure to cultural activities and family attendance at religious services. The only category in which adoptive parents fared worse was the frequency of talking with parents of other children.
Oh, and I'm sure you will find this interesting. Later on in the article, the researchers use their study to question the findings of the very Washington court case you site. Can you spell "pwned"?

Now, for further studies supporting my position. Universally, studies show that not only do same-sex parents perform as well as straight parents (whose children would probably be biological), but do better at times. As far as children's emotional health goes, studies show that, on 4 important scales, there is little or no difference between children reared from single-sex families and those from straight parents (whose children would probably be biological). The 4 components examined were Gender Identity, Gender Role Behavior, Sexual Orientation, and Other Aspects of Personal Development, such as Social Relationships. One difference they did find was that children raised by single-sex parents tend to be more flexible and less closed-minded in their thinking. I guess, as the study I posted on another thread indicated, these non-rigid thinking children will, certainly, not turn out to be conservatives. :lol:

Now, there are so many studies on this that posting them all will take up too much bandwidth. I'll post a select few. When you avoid the issue, focus on minutiae, complain about one word, try to manipulate my words, misrepresent my position, change the parameters, outright lie, or do all those things that you usually do other than debate, I'll just post more. See the difference between your position and mine is that yours is based on logical fallacies, prejudice, and inaccurate information; mine is based on logic, peer reviewed research, and facts.

Studies:
Anderssen, N., Amlie, C., & Ytteroy, E. A. (2002). Outcomes for children with lesbian or gay parents: A review of studies from 1978 to 2000. Scandinavian Journal of Psychology, 43, 335-351.

Reviewed 23 empirical studies published between 1978 and 2000 on nonclinical children raised by lesbian mothers or gay fathers (one Belgian/Dutch, one Danish, three British, and 18 North American). Twenty studies reported on offspring of lesbian mothers, and three on offspring of gay fathers. The studies encompassed a total of 615 offspring (age range 1.5-44 yrs.) of lesbian mothers or gay fathers and 387 controls, who were assessed by psychological tests, questionnaires, or interviews. Seven types of outcomes were found to be typical: emotional functioning, sexual preference, stigmatization, gender role behavior, behavioral adjustment, gender identity, and cognitive functioning. Children raised by lesbian mothers or gay fathers did not systematically differ from other children on any of the outcomes. The studies indicate that children raised by lesbian women do not experience adverse outcomes compared with other children. The same holds for children raised by gay men, but more studies should be done.
615 offspring from gay parents; 387 controls from straight parents. No differences in 7 types of functioning.

That's ONE.

Gottman, J. S. (1990). Children of gay and lesbian parents. In F. W. Bozett & M. B. Sussman (Eds.), Homosexuality and family relations (pp. 177-196). New York: Harrington Park Press.

Reviews research literature on children of homosexual (HS) parents, including comparisons with children of heterosexual parents. Children of HS parents did not appear deviant in gender identity, sexual orientation, or social adjustment. Issues that emerged during their upbringing related more to society's rejection of homosexuality than to poor parent-child relationships. Most social adjustment problems occurred in both groups and were commonly related to family history of divorce. Results are supported by J. Schwartz's (unpublished manuscript) investigation of the above variables in adult-aged daughters in relation to mothers' sexual orientations, with a focus on role modeling theory.
No difference between children raised by gay parents vs. straight parents on 3 scales. Only issue was society's issue with homosexuality; parenting was a non-issue.

That's TWO.

Kleber, D. J., Howell, R. J., & Tibbits-Kleber, A. L. (1986). The impact of parental homosexuality in child custody cases: A review of the literature. Bulletin of the American Academy of Psychiatry and Law, 14, 81-87.

Reviews the literature on the impact of parental homosexuality in child custody cases. As a result of the relatively high rate of divorce in the United States and the increasing awareness that many parents (an estimated 1.5 million) are homosexual, the courts and divorce mediators have become actively involved in child custody placement decisions involving homosexual parents. While custody decisions have tended to reflect stereotyped beliefs or fears concerning the detrimental effects of homosexual parenting practices on child development, the research literature provides no evidence substantiating these fears. Several specific custody issues are discussed as well as social factors relevant to lesbian motherhood.
Interesting study. No significant issues when homosexual parents obtain custody when a divorce occurs.

That's THREE.

Victor, S. B., & Fish, M. C. (1995). Lesbian mothers and their children: A review for school psychologists. School Psychology Review, 24, 456-479.

Reviews 56 studies (published from 1971 to 1994) on lesbian mothers and their children. Three main family patterns and some common misconceptions about these families are addressed. Research suggests there are no differences between children of lesbians and children of heterosexuals with regard to their emotional health, interpersonal relationships, sexual orientation, or gender development. Psychological adjustment and parenting skills were not significantly different for lesbian and heterosexual mothers. Implications for school psychology practice and training are discussed.
No significant difference in important emotional health issues between children raised by lesbian parents vs. straight parents.

That's FOUR.

Bigner, J. J., & Jacobsen, R. B. (1989b). Parenting behaviors of homosexual and heterosexual fathers. In F. W. Bozett (Ed.), Homosexuality and the family (pp. 173-186). New York: Harrington Park Press.

Compared the responses of 33 homosexual (HMS) fathers with those of 33 heterosexual (HTS) fathers on the Iowa Parent Behavior Inventory. HMS subjects did not differ significantly from HTS subjects in their reported degree of involvement or in intimacy level with children. HMS subjects tended to be more strict and more responsive to children's needs and provided reasons for appropriate behavior to children more consistently than HTS subjects. Possible explanations for these similarities and differences in parenting styles are explored.
Homosexual parenting vs. Heterosexual parenting is explored. No significant differences were found, though homosexual parents tended to be more strict, more responsive, and more consistent with their children.

That's FIVE.

Shall I go on? Sure, why not.

Continued...
 
Continued...

Bos, H. M. W., van Balen, F., & van den Boom, D. C. (2004). Experience of parenthood, couple relationship, social support, and child-rearing goals in planned lesbian mother families. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 45, 755-764.

The phenomenon of planned lesbian families is relatively new. The overall aim of this research was to examine whether planned lesbian mother families differ from heterosexual families on factors that are assumed to influence the parent-child relationship, such as experience of parenthood, child-rearing goals, couple relationship, and social support. One hundred lesbian two-mother families were compared with 100 heterosexual families having naturally conceived children. A variety of measures were used to collect the data, including questionnaires and a diary of activities kept by the parents. Lesbian parents are no less competent or more burdened than heterosexual parents. Both lesbian and heterosexual parents consider it important to develop qualities of independence in their children. However, "conformity" as a childrearing goal is less important to lesbian mothers. Furthermore, lesbian social mothers feel more often than fathers in heterosexual families that they must justify the quality of their parenthood. There are few differences between lesbian couples and heterosexual couples, except that lesbian mothers appear less attuned to traditional child-rearing goals and lesbian social mothers appear more to defend their position as mother.
Lesbian parents vs. Biological parents. Both are equally competent and unburdened. Styles may be different, but no other differences.

That's SIX (and a rather nice six, I might add).

Flaks, D., Ficher, I., Masterpasqua, F., & Joseph, G. (1995). Lesbians choosing motherhood: A comparative study of lesbian and heterosexual parents and their children. Developmental Psychology, 31, 104-114.

Compared 15 lesbian couples and the 3- to 9-year-old children born to them through donor insemination with 15 matched, heterosexual-parent families. A variety of assessment measures were used to evaluate the children's cognitive functioning and behavioral adjustment as well as the parents' relationship quality and parenting skills. Results revealed no significant differences between the two groups of children, who also compared favorably with the standardization samples for the instruments used. In addition, no significant differences were found between dyadic adjustment of lesbian and heterosexual couples. Only in the area of parenting did the two groups of couples differ: Lesbian couples exhibited more parenting awareness skills than did heterosexual couples. The implications of these findings are discussed.
Lesbian parents vs. heterosexual parents. No differences except that the lesbian parents exhibited more parenting awareness.

That's SEVEN. Your "biological" position smells real bad right now. :2razz:

McPherson, D. (1993). Gay parenting couples: Parenting arrangements, arrangement satisfaction, and relationship satisfaction. Unpublished doctoral dissertation, Pacific Graduate School of Psychology.

Twenty-eight gay male parenting couples and 27 heterosexual parenting couples from across the United States participated in a study comparing gay parenting couples and heterosexual parenting couples. Gay parenting couples are already existing gay couples into which a child has been brought prior to the child's 9-month birthday and in which the child is presently being reared. Parents' division of labor and satisfaction with their division of labor was assessed using Cowan and Cowan's Who Does What? Relationship satisfaction was assessed using a single question on relationship satisfaction and Spanier's 32-item Dyadic Adjustment Scale (DAS). Results revealed gay parenting couples demonstrate significantly more equitable arrangements of parenting tasks and roles and significantly greater satisfaction with those arrangements than the heterosexual parenting couples. A single question on relationship satisfaction revealed no significant difference between groups in reported satisfaction, while the 32-item DAS revealed the gay parenting couples to be significantly more satisfied with their relationships than the heterosexual couples, especially in the area of dyadic cohesion and affective expression. Post-hoc testing revealed a gender difference: Women reported significantly greater dissatisfaction with parenting arrangements than their husbands or gay parents. Findings are explained in terms of three factors unique to the experience and social setting of gay parenting couples.
Gay male couples vs. heterosexual couples. The gay couples were happier and more equitable in their parenting tasks. Other than that, no significant differences.

That's EIGHT.

Miller, B. (1979). Gay fathers and their children. Family Coordinator, 28, 544-552.

Presents data from a 3-year study on the quality and nature of the relationships of homosexual fathers with their children. In-depth interviews were conducted with a snowball sample of 40 gay fathers and 14 of their children. Uses a cross-national sample: Interviews were conducted in large and small cities in both Canada and the United States. Excluded from the study were men who no longer saw their children. Fathers were aged from 24 to 64, and the children who were interviewed ranged from 14 to 33 years of age. Addresses the nature of the father-child relationship and the children's adjustment to their father's homosexuality. Four issues frequently raised in custody cases are discussed: Do gay fathers have children to cover their homosexuality, do they molest their children, do their children turn out to be gay in disproportionate numbers, and does having a gay father expose a child to homophobic harassment. Concludes that concerns that gay fathers will have a negative impact on their children's development are unfounded.
The impact on the children of gay fathers based on 4 concerns. No negative impact.

That's NINE.

Green, R., Mandel, J. B., Hotvedt, M. E., Gray, J., & Smith, L. (1986). Lesbian mothers and their children: A comparison with solo parent heterosexual mothers and their children. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 7, 175-181.

Compared the sexual identity and social relationships of 30 daughters and 26 sons (aged 3-11 yrs.) of 50 homosexual mothers with 28 daughters and 20 sons of 40 heterosexual mothers. Mothers were currently unmarried White women aged 25-46 years. In addition to age and race, mothers were matched on length of separation from father; educational level and income; and number, age, and sex of children. Subjects were from rural and urban areas in 10 U.S. states and lived without adult males in the household for a minimum of 2 years. Data from children's tests on intelligence, core-morphologic sexual identity, gender-role preferences, family and peer group relationships, and adjustment to the single-parent family indicate that there were no significant differences between the two types of households for boys and few significant differences for girls. Data also reveal more similarities than differences in parenting experiences, marital history, and present living situations of the two groups of mothers. It is suggested that the mother's sexual orientation per se should not enter into considerations on parental fitness that are commonly asserted in child custody cases.
Children's sexual identity when reared by lesbian mothers vs, heterosexual mothers was explored. No difference in boys; few in girls. Mostly, both groups were similar.

That's TEN.

Golombok, S., Spencer, A., & Rutter, M. (1983). Children in lesbian and single-parent households: Psychosexual and psychiatric appraisal. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 24, 551-572.

Compared the psychosexual development, emotions, behavior, and relationships of 37 children (aged 5-17 yrs.) reared in 27 lesbian households with 38 children (aged 5-27 yrs.) reared in 27 heterosexual single-parent households. Systematic standardized interviews with the mothers and with the children, together with parent and teacher questionnaires, were used to make the psychosexual and psychiatric assessments. The two groups did not differ in terms of their gender identity, sex-role behavior, or sexual orientation. Also, they did not differ on most measures of emotions, behavior, and relationships, although there was some indication of more frequent psychiatric problems in the single-parent group. It is concluded that rearing in a lesbian household per se does not lead to atypical psychosexual development or constitute a psychiatric risk factor.
Children in lesbian households vs. those in single-parent heterosexual households on sexual identity. No significant difference. In fact, no difference on any emotional/behavioral scale.

That's ELEVEN.

Had enough, yet? No? OK.

Kirkpatrick, M., Smith, C., & Roy, R. (1981). Lesbian mothers and their children: A comparative survey. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 51, 545-551.

Forty 5- to 12-year-olds, divided equally into groups according to their mothers' sexual choice and within group by sex, were assessed with a developmental history, WISC scores, the Holtzman Inkblot Technique, and the Human Figure Drawing test. Subjects' gender development was not identifiably different in the two groups. Prevalence of disturbance was not found to be a function of the mother's sexual choice.
Children of lesbian mothers vs. heterosexual mothers in regards to developmental, intellectual, and emotional functioning. No significant difference.

That's TWELVE.

And that's enough for tonight.

Links used:

Lesbian & Gay Parents
Children of Lesbian and Gay Parents
Empirical Studies Specifically Related to Lesbian & Gay Parents & Their Children
Empirical Studies Generally Related to the Fitness of Lesbians and Gay Men as Parents
Reviews of Empirical Studies Specifically Related to Lesbian and Gay Parents and Their Children
Reviews of Empirical Studies Specifically Related to Lesbian and Gay Parents and Their Children

Now folks, let's watch dixon spin, manipulate, divert, change the parameter, and do absolutely everything except debate what I have presented.
 
Soooo you believe that if some activity is not harmful to society, the government is obligated to promote, regulate and licence that activity???? Odd rational. Women giving blowjobs to men is not harmful to society but I dont believe the government would have any basis for promoting, licensing and regulating the blowers. Children do better when raised by both of their biological parents. Thats why the government promotes the arrangement. NOT because it does no harm.

Thing is one minute gay marriage is harmful(because of the children issue), next minute it's some other reason, but even so, if it actually can't be proven harmful then what's the point of making a big deal out of it? The big issue in my mind is that gay marriage will be destructive to society, which would be harmful, and I just can't really see it. I've tried, and been on the opposite side of the issue, but after evaluating it, it just didn't make sense to me. I don't see where even if it's a chose it really matters. People have a right to make choices about how they want to live, and with whom.

There are more biological parents rearing kids, but many kids today are in broken homes, or living with a step-parent. Life has changed. Children may do better within the confines of their natural parents homes, but many don't have that luxury, so there are alternatives that also can work out very well. People aren't getting married for the family anymore, and I still don't think they ever did, they got married for love, or companionship, and to share assets, kids were never the first point on their minds. Women wanted the stability, and men wanted the sex. The kids issue was in the back of their minds, but not front and center. Many times people got married in the past because they had to. Remember that? Now they don't. The kid many times comes before the marriage, if marriage ever happens.

I'm liking the way things have evolved. I think it's much better for society to be accepting, and unintrusive in our lives. It's "leave me alone", and let me live. Peace to all. :)
 
I am too. It's inconceivable to me that someone hasn't pressed the issue just to prove a point.

But technically, I don't see how other states can get away with not recognizing a union granted by another state. It's right there in the Constitution

DOMA (Defense of marriage act) signed by Clinton in 1996 makes it possible for states to ignore Gay Marriage or Civil Unions. I don't think Clinton really agreed with this act, but he did sign it.

I believe that this issue has to go Federal Law. Make it legal in all 50 states. That's the only way to speed up the inevitable. You can't have some states allowing it, and some not, it doesn't make for uniformity.
 
Firstly, your link is not a Supreme Court case. It is a case from the Washington State court system...please keep track of you inaccuracies.

Perhaps you missed the first line of text displayed

IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON

Secondly, the case report makes mention of some research that was presented in 1998 to the Washington State Legislature when discussing Bill 1130 (marriage laws). It says nothing about the exact nature of this research, and only uses the word "thrive" when discussing biological children. It does not quote the research, directly, nor does it offer links to it. On further analysis, I found no links to research of this nature for examination. Let's see if you can find it. :roll:

I said it "refers" to research. Supreme court cases dont have 'links" silly.


This seems to illustrate that the only reason for this decision is the judge's prejudice against gay marriage. Most of the case report is contradictory in its evidence, and, primarily, bases its decision on DOMA.

Actually it was decided using basic and accepted principles of Constitutional law. You wouldnt understand.

Now, since you have been unable to offer any research, I will offer mine.

Firstly, this study indicates that adoptive parents are often more attentive than biological parents.

That would be a reason for government to promote adoption and doesnt do anything for your arguements regarding gay marriage.


Now, for further studies supporting my position. Universally, studies show that not only do same-sex parents perform as well as straight parents (whose children would probably be biological),

If the sample was representative of the population, "probably" at least half of them were not.
 
I'm liking the way things have evolved. I think it's much better for society to be accepting, and unintrusive in our lives. It's "leave me alone", and let me live. Peace to all. :)

Seems kind of silly then to argue that government should intrude and license and regulate the relationship.
 
That's SEVEN. Your "biological" position smells real bad right now. :2razz:

Your insertion of the term "biological" into the text and your use of the term, when discussing the studies, doesnt change the fact that the term isnt even used or discussed in the studies you cite. Your claims that they somehow contradict my positions, is where the smells are coming from.
 
Seems kind of silly then to argue that government should intrude and license and regulate the relationship.

Could say that for marriage in general. The regulations are for the general welfare of all the people. Marriage is a pretty advantageous thing to do if you think about it. Lots of benefits to it. Makes things less stressful. This is what everything should be about, less stress. People who marry generally live longer, so it's definitely an advantage.

I'm thinking gay marriage might actually make more heteros start getting married again instead of just living together. To me this new trend of not getting married isn't advantageous for women. I wonder how many young women are being left high and dry with kids, no wedding ring, no nothing.
 
I'm thinking gay marriage might actually make more heteros start getting married again instead of just living together. To me this new trend of not getting married isn't advantageous for women. I wonder how many young women are being left high and dry with kids, no wedding ring, no nothing.

I don't think gay marriage will change the fact that women don't use contraception or demand that men wear condoms. They will still "give the milk away for free without the purchase of the cow". These women need to start thinking instead of making life decisions based on emotions. "But I love him" is no excuse for putting themselves at risk of being left high and dry.
 
So basically you're saying navy is that you can change marriage in any way BUT the sexes?

(also, how would intra-family be changing the sex?)

You said that the change from it being racial specific, to racial non-specific is different then sexually specific, to non-sexually specific...and your reason for this is because it at least keeps it man and woman

This BLATANTLY shows the truth of the matter. You don't care about the "sanctity" of marriage being maintained. If you did, and you honestly thought tradition was sacred, you wouldn't be supporting any changes of any kind to marriage. Instead, you don't one ONE specific change to happen, because you personally dislike it, and you dress it up as if its some holy "sanctity" arguement.
 
The entire institution of marriage, cultural, religious and legal has evolved because men and women in an intimate relationship frequently produce babies. If they did not, the institution wouldnt exist. A man and a woman is the only combination that can produce their own child. Any other arrangement involves at least one other person with rights and responsibilities of a biological parent. Marriage laws are for the protection of women and children. The prevention of illigitimacy. One can argue that government has no business being involved in such matters. One can also argue that the promotion and regulation of men and women raising the children they produce, as opposed to not doing so, is a valid governmental interest. Promoting the normalization of gay sex is not a valid governmental interest.
 
The reproduction of children, at our current juncture, really isn't a valid government interest as well. Additionally, there are too many falicies as is that allow people who can not, or will not, have children be able to be married, so to say that the purpose of it is for the propogation of the family is to admit that its a failed institution that doesn't succeed at its goals.
 
The reproduction of children, at our current juncture, really isn't a valid government interest as well. Additionally, there are too many falicies as is that allow people who can not, or will not, have children be able to be married, so to say that the purpose of it is for the propogation of the family is to admit that its a failed institution that doesn't succeed at its goals.

????? So you see no advantage to parents raising the children they produce? No advantage to fewer single mothers raising children alone as opposed to more? No advantage to a pregnant woman knowing who the father is as opposed to wondering which one of 3 or 4 guys who might be?
Fallacy? No, encouraging all intimate two sex couples to marry results in encouraging those who do reproduce to be married.
Failed? I suspect if the institution did not exist, there would be 10 fold the # of single women raising children are on their own.
Bonobo chimps run around screwing any fellow chimp who will let them and women are solely responsible for raising the children. Thats what we seem to be evolving towards. Slowing and discouraging that process is a good thing in my mind. If not by the government, at a minimum the government shouldnt be the architect of the institutions demise.
 
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I see a benifit to parents raising children the produce; however i do not believe that the government bonus's to marriage cause there to be more, or less, people that care for a child as parents. I see nothing about removing the current benifits for marriage that would make there be a large glut more "single mothers" raising children.

The last thing you said, about knowing who the father is, has absolutely nothing to do with marriage.

Its a fallacy because if the purpose of the government giving benifits to married couples was that they would have a kid and have a family then why is part of the requirement to enter into those marriages not "You can, and will, have a child upon entering this marriage". IF that is the reason for the government giving preferential treatment to those married, then that should be a requirement. It isn't, so its a fallacy to say that reproduction is the reason for the government to have an interest.

Congrats. I can throw out random giant numbers out too with nothing factual to make it up. I suspect that if you posted actual facts kazakastan would suddenly become a world power. People who would now, currently, get married for reasons of love, caring, or raising a family would most likely still love each other, care for each other, and raise a family if the benifits for marriage didn't exist. Perhaps you'd not have as many people getting married PURELY because they accidently had a kid, but you can go through studies upon such families and find that those AREN'T stable, nor good family environments for the kid. It has nothing to do with if they're married or not, it has to do if the couple wants to have a family and chooses to enter into that willingly.

The fact that you think we're going to devolve to the level of CHIMPS because the government doesn't let two people file their taxes together is absolutely, postiviely, absurd.


------

Additionally, neither I, nor Panache, is pushing for the desctruction of the insitution of marriage. We both believe marriage should exist, and its fine if people want to enter into it. However, it should not be an institution that is legislated by the government nor should it be an institution that gives unequal benifits to different people. It should be a personal, religious/spiritual/emotional act...not a governmental one.
 
So basically you're saying navy is that you can change marriage in any way BUT the sexes?

(also, how would intra-family be changing the sex?)

You said that the change from it being racial specific, to racial non-specific is different then sexually specific, to non-sexually specific...and your reason for this is because it at least keeps it man and woman

This BLATANTLY shows the truth of the matter. You don't care about the "sanctity" of marriage being maintained. If you did, and you honestly thought tradition was sacred, you wouldn't be supporting any changes of any kind to marriage. Instead, you don't one ONE specific change to happen, because you personally dislike it, and you dress it up as if its some holy "sanctity" arguement.


I said that if a man and a woman of different races marry it does not change the law.......I have no problem with men and women of different races marrying.........In fact I am in one of those marriages.......My wife is Asian..........

Again to me Sanctity or religion are a part of it but not the most important part...................I think I have explained my reasons for not changing marriage in several posts on this thread..............
 
What I was saying though Navy...was that the laws in this country about marriage, that you think are sanctified and should now be changed for a number of reasons...HAVE changed in the past 200 years.
 
Its a fallacy because if the purpose of the government giving benifits to married couples was that they would have a kid and have a family then why is part of the requirement to enter into those marriages not

Nooo, its not so "that they would have a kid". Its so IF they have a kid, they are in a marriage with rights and duties regarding the child and spouse well defined. Children sometimes just happen without a plan.
 
Nooo, its not so "that they would have a kid". Its so IF they have a kid, they are in a marriage with rights and duties regarding the child and spouse well defined. Children sometimes just happen without a plan.

So what IF a gay couple adopts?
 
The fact that you think we're going to devolve to the level of CHIMPS because the government doesn't let two people file their taxes together is absolutely, postiviely, absurd.

I was refering to the institution of marriage, not any benefits the government decides to attach to the institution. Long before any kind of government existed above a tribe, the institution of marriage has existed. Encouraging men and women who want to have an intimate relationship, to do so within a marriage. And without the institution of marriage, I think its crazy to think men and women would naturally gravitate towards such a relationship even without the religious and cultural influences that push people to do so. Men are wired to spread their seed.
 
And I don't know of anyone, or many, in this thread that want to get rid of "marriage". At most, people are wanting "marriage" to be written out of LAW, and to be a private matter between people that the government does not have its fingers in.

And IF the government demands that it has its fingers in it, and is giving privledges to people, then it should give those privledges in an equal way according to its reasoning for having its fingers in it. Currently, it does not.

The first option would be the better one in my opinion. The second would be worse, but better than current.
 
What I was saying though Navy...was that the laws in this country about marriage, that you think are sanctified and should now be changed for a number of reasons...HAVE changed in the past 200 years.


They have changed for a race of people and its still a man and a woman..........They have not been changed, with the exception of Mass. for a class of people who have been defined by their sexual preference.........Huge difference..........
 
They have changed for a race of people and its still a man and a woman..........They have not been changed, with the exception of Mass. for a class of people who have been defined by their sexual preference.........Huge difference..........

I thought you were the one who was saying that if we allowed gay marriage it would open the way to other things like bestiality and incest and stuff. Was that not the case?
 
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